UFC's Lyoto Machida + His Wrestling Coach Kenny Johnson: Chi Sao + Takedown Defense D

[anerlich]

it isn't so, he was doing some hibred stuff mixing his close range karate hand fighting with his sumo hand fighting he has never had a wing chun class in his life, then what you have is someone classing it as chi Sao because they don't know any better

This.......................

[Frost]

Frost is just mad because we took his colonies and reduced his country to the little island that it is

not mad bit annoyed you always arrive late for the big wars though (WW1 And 2) and lets not even go into the lend lease agreement......im just annoyed people make these posts as if someone doing something they think is similar to what they do in any way validates how they train and their art....
We have had it before with people on this forum claiming because machida fights hoe they think a wing Chun guy would fight it validates their art, it doesn't it validates his art and if you want to look like him maybe you should train like he does

Not to mention if the only example you can find of how you art should work in a real fight is someone who has never trained it, then maybe there is something really wrong with your art

[Vajramusti]

not mad bit annoyed you always arrive late for the big wars though (WW1 And 2) and lets not even go into the lend lease agreement......im just annoyed people make these posts as if someone doing something they think is similar to what they do in any way validates how they train and their art....
We have had it before with people on this forum claiming because machida fights hoe they think a wing Chun guy would fight it validates their art, it doesn't it validates his art and if you want to look like him maybe you should train like he does

Not to mention if the only example you can find of how you art should work in a real fight is someone who has never trained it, then maybe there is something really wrong with your art

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Agree that it is silly to validate one's wing chun by claiming that someone in another style is doing some aspect of wing chun. But practices from different arts can be illustrative of similar principles, in this case sharpening of tactile skills by using handwork that looks a bit like some mainland chi sao. Tyson in his prime illustrated some parallel principles before wandering away from Cus D'Amatos principles before the Douglas fight....peekaboo, center closed hand formation, taking the inner line etc.

Drinking of urine by Machida does not validate ayurvedists as fighters.

It's problematic for me to generalize about wing chun since often the differences are greater than the similarities in what wing chun people do.

BTW/imo for some wing chun people- wing chun can be effective at quite different ranges including clinching. You tube materials , snips from the internet and the like give us incomplete views on many subjects.

[Kellen Bassette]

not mad bit annoyed you always arrive late for the big wars though (WW1 And 2)

Well we're making up for it by starting all the new wars...

and lets not even go into the lend lease agreement......im just annoyed people make these posts as if someone doing something they think is similar to what they do in any way validates how they train and their art....
We have had it before with people on this forum claiming because machida fights hoe they think a wing Chun guy would fight it validates their art, it doesn't it validates his art and if you want to look like him maybe you should train like he does

I don't think he would train and film an exercise, if he didn't feel there was some value to it...but instead of looking for something he does that you also do, I think people should be wondering what aspects of his training don't I do, in my training. Also, how much of his training time is spent on an exercise like this?

Lots of styles have some variation of Chi Sao training, as a minor part of their curriculum; but I don't think there is any style that puts such a major emphasis on it as Wing Chun. As I've stated before, I think Chi Sao makes more sense as a drill to enhance elements of clinch game, instead of striking game. Notice Machida is working it with a wrestling coach...

[Frost]

Well we're making up for it by starting all the new wars...



I don't think he would train and film an exercise, if he didn't feel there was some value to it...but instead of looking for something he does that you also do, I think people should be wondering what aspects of his training don't I do, in my training. Also, how much of his training time is spent on an exercise like this?

Lots of styles have some variation of Chi Sao training, as a minor part of their curriculum; but I don't think there is any style that puts such a major emphasis on it as Wing Chun. As I've stated before, I think Chi Sao makes more sense as a drill to enhance elements of clinch game, instead of striking game. Notice Machida is working it with a wrestling coach...

Now all you have to do is actually win one on your own without anyone else helping
That’s the thing when the cameras are around, they want to see different unusual stuff, stuff that will make the viewers hang around, which is why on those behind the scenes ufc shows you see them doing the tyre flips battle rope and kettlebell until you are sick stuff, and not the hours of basic strength work with a barbell or the hours of roadwork they do, it makes for interesting viewing regardless of if its only a small part of their training cycle

Look at the stance Machida hits at the end of the sticky hands bit, he is messing around for the camera and having a laugh, how serious he is about that sort of training is anyones guess and as you say how much of it makes its way into his serious training I have no idea

Machida he is not working his chi sao stuff with his wrestling coach (in the clip Machida is doing his sticking with someone else NOT his wrestling coach)Kenny is working on getting machida to use his unique skillset: fast hands, not overly commited hand attacks, quick evasive feet, fast stance work (all which seem to come from his karate training and sparring), to aid his takedown defense, none of their work in that clip showed any hand contact work or chi sao work of any kind.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Kellen Bassette;1256339] As I've stated before, I think Chi Sao makes more sense as a drill to enhance elements of clinch game, instead of striking game. Notice Machida is working it with a wrestling coach
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IMO- Ip Man chi sao in good lines is a lab not just a drill. As one learns more wing chun it can be incorporated into chi sao. Hence- the timings and the various forms of power help - not just in
clinching, but in the striking, throwing and breaking and defense functions.

Best not to generalize about all of wing chun. Most really talk about their wing chun.

[Kellen Bassette]

Machida he is not working his chi sao stuff with his wrestling coach (in the clip Machida is doing his sticking with someone else NOT his wrestling coach)Kenny is working on getting machida to use his unique skillset: fast hands, not overly commited hand attacks, quick evasive feet, fast stance work (all which seem to come from his karate training and sparring), to aid his takedown defense, none of their work in that clip showed any hand contact work or chi sao work of any kind.

My bad, I only watched it once through, didn't notice it wasn't the coach...was just implying the drill may make more sense as from a clinch wrestling standpoint than a striking standpoint. I know most won't agree with me on that....

[Frost]

My bad, I only watched it once through, didn't notice it wasn't the coach...was just implying the drill may make more sense as from a clinch wrestling standpoint than a striking standpoint. I know most won't agree with me on that....

no problem I only watched it once two but I know Kenny so could recognise his ugly mug fast hands and good tactile reactions will always help in grappling , indeed the sticking my teacher does in our sourhern systems flows in to clinch range, the question is is wing chun chi sao the most efficent may of gaining those clinch related skills......

[Kellen Bassette]

Best not to generalize about all of wing chun. Most really talk about their wing chun.

I'm not a Chunner, so I have to generalize a bit. I am well aware there can be big differences in training methods and theory from school to school, even within the same system/line.

Chi Sao isn't unique to WC, I think what may be unique to WC though, is the varying degrees of importance and emphasis placed on the method. I'm not for doing away with these kind of training methods....I just think the bulk of one's training is better spent devolving and applying the fundamental fighting skills of a system; and any auxiliary methods used to enhance certain qualities of a skill, should take a far smaller role.

[Kellen Bassette]

nindeed the sticking my teacher does in our sourhern systems flows in to clinch range, the question is is wing chun chi sao the most efficent may of gaining those clinch related skills......

Probably not; but I think there is some merit to kind of "mixing it up" a bit. It keeps the training from becoming stale and keeps the mind sharp.

I don't think there is any danger with spending some time on a drill that may not be the "best" or most efficient method, so long as you are spending more time on those good and efficient methods; and your supplementary work isn't in conflict with the core ideas and mechanics.

[kung fu fighter]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQZeq8HlAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRJMTOadNTE

[Frost]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQZeq8HlAg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRJMTOadNTE

ok so what exactly are these clips meant to show that's big country a man known for his wild overhand punching style, granite like chin and bjj blackbelt, secretly loves chi Sao and wing chun and that's why he wins in the Ufc?? Event though his style is about as un wing chun as you can get??

[Dragonzbane76]

lol big country always reminded me of a tank abbot type of fighter but with a little more polish.

[anerlich]

I can't buy that drill being some sort of grappling drill. It looks to me like some sort of defense against striking.

Wrestling already has drills to develop attributes for wrestling roughly analogous to what chi sao does for striking. They are called pummelling and handfighting.

WC makes much of chi sao developed sensitivity. Grapplers need the same sensitivity but in multiple ranges and planes and for the entire body. Good grappling is as much about redirecting and borrowing force as is good WC. I very much doubt that a decent grappler would find their game enormously enhanced by learning chi sao, other than perhaps as an interesting diversion with some possible marginal benefits.

[Kellen Bassette]

I very much doubt that a decent grappler would find their game enormously enhanced by learning chi sao, other than perhaps as an interesting diversion with some possible marginal benefits.

The same could be said for a decent striker.