Youknowwho and others please comment

[bawang]

I don't think you comphrehend the meaning of kata/xing. It means pattern, form, shape, appearance.

the shapes teach very specific concepts. you don't pull techniques out ur ass.

[bawang]

Did you read what I wrote? Or are you just agreeing with me?

I didn't read it. u confuse me when u argue wit laroux man

also u do know laroux doesn't train any actual martial arts right. for 4 years this guy never said what he trained and has never described a single mma technique in detail

[Jimbo]

There are two person kata/taolu in Karate/Gong Fu. Not really any different than Judo as far as usage or practice, just longer and more content.

True...I should have clarified that, although karate and kung fu have 2-person forms, but the judo kata are always 2-person. When I trained judo, kata practice was simply practicing the ideal technique of the throw or other technique on a cooperative partner.

[lkfmdc]

there are no secret wrestling techniques in kung fu. if its wrestling, its called wrestling.

if a technique in a form is wrestling its called wrestling. the poem will say "this technique is for wrestling"

the shapes teach very specific concepts. you don't pull techniques out ur ass.

LO Han Fuk Fu "Arhat Subdues a Tiger" in Lama Pai can be BOTH a strike and a throw

Baahk HOk Tam Soi "white crane splashes water" can be sweep (striking) or set up for throw

LO Han Pak Deih "Arhat Strikes the earth" can be takedown, can also be way to stop a takedown

Pau Wai Sau "destroying hands" can be block or set up for throw

real system is not so black and white

[TenTigers]

It's just a stupid for them as it is for any other system.

And you won't find judo practitioners trying to pull out techniques from their katas. They learn their techniques in practice against partners.

and there you have it.
"Some" Forms can be a textbook. Many systems don't have forms and simply have a long list of techniques, but if that list is lost or forgotten, so is the system. With a form, you can always extract and extrapolate your techniques.
(mind you, not all forms are textbooks (kuen-faht) some are developmental (gung-faht), but in this specific case, we are talking about textbook.

[YouKnowWho]

If you fight all your life, one day you are too old to fight. You don't want to quit training. You collect all your favor fighting combos, link it into a form. Before you die, you teach that sequence to your students. Your students then pass it down to the next generation. That's a form.

I went to a Karate black belt testing one day. The students had to remember the order of 65 different techniques. When the instructor said, "technique 37", his students had to perform it right way. A 65 moves form will be helpful in this case.

SC has about 400 throws. If someone can link all 400 throw into a long form, not only that form will be able to help people to achieve "health", it can also be an excellent "throwing skill text book".

Again, forms are for teaching and learning only. It's not designed for training. After you have learned a form, you record it on DVD, you no longer have to "train" it any more.

[LaRoux]

If you fight all your life, one day you are too old to fight. You don't want to quit training. You collect all your favor fighting combos, link it into a form. Before you die, you teach that sequence to your students. Your students then pass it down to the next generation. That's a form..

And that's exactly why teachers who developed systems that rely on forms being passed down had systems that became mostly useless and obsolete.

The teachers who, instead of categorizing their favorite fighting combos into forms, taught the application of the techniques to their students are the ones who developed the systems that have remained practical and useful.

[LaRoux]

LO Han Fuk Fu "Arhat Subdues a Tiger" in Lama Pai can be BOTH a strike and a throw

Baahk HOk Tam Soi "white crane splashes water" can be sweep (striking) or set up for throw

LO Han Pak Deih "Arhat Strikes the earth" can be takedown, can also be way to stop a takedown

Pau Wai Sau "destroying hands" can be block or set up for throw

real system is not so black and white

The things in those forms are not sweeps, set ups, throws, takedowns, takedown defense, or blocks.

What they are is dancing around and doing movements in the air.

[IronWeasel]

Any fighting applications taken from forms is ridiculous.

A statement like this is why no one takes you seriously.

[lkfmdc]

A statement like this is why no one takes you seriously.

you know, once you identify someone as just a troll, you're just better off putting them on ignore and not responding. You aren't going anywhere and you are wasting not only your time, but forum space

[-N-]

Quicky learning forms for self serving reasons quickly leads to the decay of a system. Over time a past master's wisdom is lost as future generations seek only to collect instead of understand. If it's a form collected from an outside system, and learned in this manner, and is vastly different from the style you study the essence is lost and more than likely can never be regained. More often than not when this happens and individuals try to re-interpret the movements it becomes so perverted that it is no longer what it was originally intended to be used for.

Which is why traditional teachers are so particular about who they teach and get faulted for not sharing their system more widely.

[-N-]

Dead and useless systems rely on forms to categorize and pass on their techniques.

Alive and effective systems rely on usage to categorize and pass on their techniques.

Doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

Effective TCMA combines both.

[IronWeasel]

you know, once you identify someone as just a troll, you're just better off putting them on ignore and not responding. You aren't going anywhere and you are wasting not only your time, but forum space

Roger that.

[Dale Dugas]

yeah all the tools are back in the "ignore" box for me.

[IronWeasel]

Thinking that you can take fighting applications from forms is why kung fu is not taken seriously.

Maybe when I use one of those applications on you, you can begin to take it seriously.