Youknowwho and others please comment

[lkfmdc]

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v...1&notif_t=like

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

[jimbob]

I enjoy watching you teach Dave and was bummed when i was in NYC last summer and wasn't able to drop in (wife had a ruptured disk - was veeerry slow going and needed help...).

Are you asking what we think about your interpretation of this movement as show in the clip (makes perfect sense), or are you asking in general what we think about multiple interpretations of a movement within a form? (which also makes sense some of the time).

I don't necessarily think that every move in a form is hidden. I DO think that things have become so obscured by people not understanding what they're doing that multiple interpretations are now par for the course.

honestly - I think people first trained with partners - just as we see in your clip. When they had no-one to train with they probably mimicked the movements in the air as best they could. Maybe someone at some stage thought this was the super important secret part of the training, passed down the importance of form (instead of partner work) and we have the misguided focus on forms work we see today.

Along the way, those students became teachers, their students started teaching, each person's ego demands they leave their own little contribution and voila - multiple interpretations, many of them ludicrous, especially when the teacher has never been in a fight.

Have you seen some of the 'single whip' interpretations out there?

[lkfmdc]

I enjoy watching you teach Dave and was bummed when i was in NYC last summer and wasn't able to drop in (wife had a ruptured disk - was veeerry slow going and needed help...).

Sorry to hear that, hope she is ok

Are you asking what we think about your interpretation of this movement as show in the clip (makes perfect sense), or are you asking in general what we think about multiple interpretations of a movement within a form? (which also makes sense some of the time).

I open the floor to both discussions....

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities

And, of course, in the broader scheme of things, what are forms and what do they have to teach us.......

I don't necessarily think that every move in a form is hidden. I DO think that things have become so obscured by people not understanding what they're doing that multiple interpretations are now par for the course.

I don't know if "hidden" is the right word... obscured? oh definitely, we see some horrible applications, applications that defy common sense at times

A two person drill is explicit, forms are not... is this a positive or a negative or just a cautionary tale?

Have you seen some of the 'single whip' interpretations out there?

I have seen a lot on that....

[Faux Newbie]

In agreement with Jimbob.

I think one thing that works for and against those able to access more classical sources is that, if one accepts problems with interpretations now, what period and source should be accepted as not having the same problems? Written documents cannot be guaranteed to represent all the best martial arts and ideas from earlier periods, so these sources would likely have errors or omissions as well. Even sources decrying the fakes of their day likely had their own biases and face to think of.

It's good to study these sources, but defining all practices by them could prove problematic.

I've always liked that throw.

[jimbob]

A two person drill is explicit, forms are not... is this a positive or a negative or just a cautionary tale?

See - I think 'forms' were probably originally quite explicit. If I follow my line of thinking, it was just some guy practising without his buddy who for whatever reason didn't show up that day. Over time, people just forgot about the other guy in the picture.

The cautionary tale lies in ritualising things without knowing why - like the story of the zen master who kept his pet cat close by when he meditated. He dies, his student likes the cat and keeps it around, others monks visit, see the cat, go back to their own monasteries and get their own cats.....and before you know it, it's impossible to meditate without a cat. No-one has the faintest idea why, they only know it's vitally important that meditation is done 'this way'.

I think the vast majority of what we see in traditional styles these days are these 'cats'.

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8RR...&feature=share

They start with a form that's for throwing and then they show all applications.

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8RR...&feature=share

They start with a form that's for throwing and then they show all applications.

Good stuff from Shifu Liang Shao Yu

[mooyingmantis]

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities

First, nice throw you demonstrated in your original clip.

Second, as for the form interpretation as it relates to long fist, they are different. If you watch John's video, as in many long fist forms, it is the rear leg that is lifted in relation to the lead punch. In your video you lift your lead leg in relation to the lead punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcC...ature=youtu.be

[lkfmdc]

Second, as for the form interpretation as it relates to long fist, they are different. If you watch John's video, as in many long fist forms, it is the rear leg that is lifted in relation to the lead punch. In your video you lift your lead leg in relation to the lead punch.

already mentioned this and







there are indeed examples of lifted leg same side arm movement

[Dragonzbane76]

throw this out there...

maybe it was originally taught that way and over time it was taught and taught and taught and it lost its original application and changed. I've ran across many forms that people have in a system and one teaches it one way and another teaches it another. In a "general" statement I've seen many of the TCMA community shy away from the grappling/throwing portions the art in tcma. not to say that some do it differently. if that majority teach something maybe they mold it to be something other than what it originally was? don't know.

[YouKnowWho]

already mentioned this and







there are indeed examples of lifted leg same side arm movement

I'm still looking for the "intend". In all those pictures that you have posted, I just don't see that "body rotation intend".

Here is a foot sweep solo drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hejtMbbApyk

Here is the application:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOcq...ature=youtu.be

It's easy to see that a strong "body rotation intend" shown in both clips. The longfist form just don't have this kind of strong intention for

- body rotation,
- head touch knee,
- leg back kick straight up.

[MightyB]

so what do you think about form and several interpretations of same movement?

Yes - it happens all the time.

---

I sometimes don't know what to think about forms.

[YouKnowWho]

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities...

That move in your clip is called "擓(Kuai) - Leg bending lift". David C, K. Lin is very good at it. He could use it to lift up a 300 lb guys and stand on single leg. The 1st time he did to his 300 lb student, it scared that student big time.

When GM Han did his Tantui form, did he think about this move? If we look at this clip, it seems to me that his "intention" is not in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcC...ature=youtu.be

I like to look for "intent". A pulling and a punching will have different "intent" when you train solo drill even if your leg may perform exactly the same move.

[lkfmdc]

When GM Han did his Tantui form, did he think about this move? If we look at this clip, it seems to me that his "intention" is not in it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcC...ature=youtu.be

I like to look for "intent". A pulling and a punching will have different "intent" when you train solo drill even if your leg may perform exactly the same move.

the move you posted is punch and OPPOSITE side lift leg, this I agree with, I do NOT think it is the same movement ... in my example, punch and lift SAME SIDE leg...

So you think there is no throwing in long fist styles?

[YouKnowWho]

So you think there is no throwing in long fist styles?

Let me put it this way. When I trained the longfist system, my longfist teacher didn't pair us to drill the front cut over and over. To me, it's more important the training method than the "possible" hidden information.

Longfist has some throws such as

- front cut (Tantui #4),
- foot sweep (Mai Fu Chuan #2),
- leg spring (Pao Chuan #3),
- ...

but as far as hip throw, leg lift, leg twist, shoulder throw, ... I haven't be able to find it in the longfist system yet.

May be the "hip throw - mother of all throws" should be a good guideline. If a style has non-body contact throws but don't have body contact throw (such as hip throw), I would say that style is not a throwing system.

By the way, I had asked you the following question in another thread:

"Do you think the WC system has throws in their 3 forms?"

I would like to hear your opinion on this. To prove that all TCMA systems have throw may be difficult. But if we can just find one counter example, we can dis-prove this assumption.