Youknowwho and others please comment

[Dale Dugas]

Thank you, Shifu!

Thank you for the video.

Han Shifu's daughter lives and teaches in Cambridge, MA.

I saw a photo of Han Shifu's hands and saw he had strong pointed fingers. I can only imagine what Chin Na/Kam Na was like with those digging into you.

[YouKnowWho]

Han Shifu's daughter lives and teaches in Cambridge, MA.

I visited her husband's school almost 30 years ago. Is her husband Liang Ji-Tzi still teaching?

[jimbob]

A two person drill is explicit, forms are not... is this a positive or a negative or just a cautionary tale?

See - I think 'forms' were probably originally quite explicit. If I follow my line of thinking, it was just some guy practising without his buddy who for whatever reason didn't show up that day. Over time, people just forgot about the other guy in the picture.

The cautionary tale lies in ritualising things without knowing why - like the story of the zen master who kept his pet cat close by when he meditated. He dies, his student likes the cat and keeps it around, others monks visit, see the cat, go back to their own monasteries and get their own cats.....and before you know it, it's impossible to meditate without a cat. No-one has the faintest idea why, they only know it's vitally important that meditation is done 'this way'.

I think the vast majority of what we see in traditional styles these days are these 'cats'.

[MightyB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8RR...&feature=share

They start with a form that's for throwing and then they show all applications.

[Dale Dugas]

I visited her husband's school almost 30 years ago. Is her husband Liang Ji-Tzi still teaching?

He is still teaching at their school in Cambridge.

[Dale Dugas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gt8RR...&feature=share

They start with a form that's for throwing and then they show all applications.

Good stuff from Shifu Liang Shao Yu

[MightyB]

Good stuff from Shifu Liang Shao Yu

that's why I'm ambivalent about forms. Every solo form that's in mantis is also a two person set if you have a Sifu that can show you the "Ling" version. Taken as a set, it's improbable that it'd work out the way it's in the form, but taken as specific moves, set ups, counters, and combos - they do work. Can all of the techniques be learned without the forms? Yes - but would it be as fun to do it that way? IDK

[Dale Dugas]

Forms are repositories of concepts and principles.

[lkfmdc]

Let me put it this way. When I trained the longfist system, my longfist teacher didn't pair us to drill

but this is endemic problem for most CMA...having technique somewhere "in the system" but not drilling it in a way it can actually be used...

May be the "hip throw - mother of all throws" should be a good guideline. If a style has non-body contact throws but don't have body contact throw (such as hip throw), I would say that style is not a throwing system.

So many people teach taiji push hands as some retarded at a distance playing hands, very few do it as actually grappling skill... these are problems with CMA at large... .to much unrealistic training...

"Do you think the WC system has throws in their 3 forms?"

I would like to hear your opinion on this. To prove that all TCMA systems have throw may be difficult. But if we can just find one counter example, we can dis-prove this assumption.

Wing Chun people are most sensitive of all CMA people, it becomes a bore to discuss this system because no one wants to learn anything. I have found some good techniques to counter clinch and throw, and even this they say "insults their tradition"

See - I think 'forms' were probably originally quite explicit. If I follow my line of thinking, it was just some guy practising without his buddy who for whatever reason didn't show up that day. Over time, people just forgot about the other guy in the picture.

Well, a few moves in the air, everyone does this, even "MMA people" (LOL)... but when it becomes ritualized, well, again this is special burden of CMA... huge forms and those who have forgotten what they are really about

Forms are repositories of concepts and principles.

You need this if you are illiterate or semi literate... well, in that case, for many we still need them

[TenTigers]

well, in my case, you're preaching to the choir. I always advocate looking for as many possibilities of applications of forms. It's the way I was "raised."

My first Kenpo teacher used to say,
"Make it work." If the technique didn't work for you, then find a way to make it work.
Sifu James Tsang taught Bak Mei Jik Bo Kuen to the class, then took the first move and said,
"Break into groups and find me five applications to this move."
When I asked Sifu Robert Chu, why Wing Chun didn't have claws, he demonstrated the huen sao and grab
-but emphasized the grab, articulating his fingers.
"Who says this isn't a claw?"
My own reading taught me that every move in a form has Da, Tek, Na and Suht.
A former teacher, who outweighed me by a hundred pounds, would show techniques that he with his size, could pull off on me, but I would never attempt against someone his size, so I worked to find ways to make it happen.
Tuhon Chris Sayoc taught to cut the wrist at long range, the brachial artery at medium range, and the carotid artery at close range-same technique, same movement.
I applied this to striking-limb destruction at mid range, strike to the head at close range-same technique.
Shuai Jiao neck surrounding is sow choy-
was it meant to be a throw in Hung-Ga? Who knows? Who cares?
It IS in MY Hung-Ga. If it isn't in yours, well, then you are at a loss.

Learning other styles, thinking outside the box, opened my mind to what I had before me.
preach on.

[mooyingmantis]

YKW has at times seemed to say that northern long fist styles don't have throws, yet in this we see possibilities

First, nice throw you demonstrated in your original clip.

Second, as for the form interpretation as it relates to long fist, they are different. If you watch John's video, as in many long fist forms, it is the rear leg that is lifted in relation to the lead punch. In your video you lift your lead leg in relation to the lead punch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUcC...ature=youtu.be

[lkfmdc]

Second, as for the form interpretation as it relates to long fist, they are different. If you watch John's video, as in many long fist forms, it is the rear leg that is lifted in relation to the lead punch. In your video you lift your lead leg in relation to the lead punch.

already mentioned this and







there are indeed examples of lifted leg same side arm movement

[Dragonzbane76]

throw this out there...

maybe it was originally taught that way and over time it was taught and taught and taught and it lost its original application and changed. I've ran across many forms that people have in a system and one teaches it one way and another teaches it another. In a "general" statement I've seen many of the TCMA community shy away from the grappling/throwing portions the art in tcma. not to say that some do it differently. if that majority teach something maybe they mold it to be something other than what it originally was? don't know.

[IronWeasel]

of course on both points, but it does seem that throwing, tripping, sweeping and wrestling in general has been lost from our TCMA when it was supposed to be there...

maybe I will film some specific examples later this week

I learned Tai Chi and assumed that all techniques were strikes, blocks and kicks.

THEN I learned Shuai Chiao and the throwing applications within Tai Chi became apparent to me.

My experience has been that a student must be taught the basics and principles of a throwing art before they will be able to visualize the application within a form.

[YouKnowWho]

already mentioned this and







there are indeed examples of lifted leg same side arm movement

I'm still looking for the "intend". In all those pictures that you have posted, I just don't see that "body rotation intend".

Here is a foot sweep solo drill.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hejtMbbApyk

Here is the application:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uOcq...ature=youtu.be

It's easy to see that a strong "body rotation intend" shown in both clips. The longfist form just don't have this kind of strong intention for

- body rotation,
- head touch knee,
- leg back kick straight up.