Control your opponent's leg/legs

[YouKnowWho]

Can you throw your opponent without controlling his leg/legs? In the following clip, you can see that "leg control" is not involved.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98yRuBkUBGQ

If you let your opponent to have too much freedom on his legs, it's very easy for him to escape your attack. In the following clips, it's easy to see that since one of his opponent's legs is hooked, it's harder for his opponent to escape. That will increase the successful rate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iftncTWdQyc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcrqPsVHkTo

Not trying to compare the style difference here (the word "style" has no meaning to me) but to compare whether one approach is more "combat effective" than the other.

What's your opinion on this?

[-N-]

http://youtu.be/lRKa0myJDas

[pazman]

In Judo's osoto gari, if one's timing and explosiveness were enough, you could put the opponent on the ground with only the unbalancing, without the leg control. This might be considered "kao" in CMA. The technique would also be called "aigamae ate" in Aikido. It is a cool concept but its better to focus on the full technique with leg control because it is much more practical.

Train practical first, train "cool" stuff later.

[-N-]

Throwing is about controlling or moving the opponent around his center. You can do it with help of leg control, but you don't always have to.

[lkfmdc]

People who have done Judo think about blocking the leg with their leg, but the same action can be done with your hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGrCHBpek0

Sometimes people attack the incorrect leg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbisUw49E4c

[YouKnowWho]

People who have done Judo think about blocking the leg with their leg, but the same action can be done with your hand

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfGrCHBpek0

Sometimes people attack the incorrect leg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbisUw49E4c

In Chinese wrestling, both leg block and hand block are considered as the same "blocking" category. The nice thing about "hand block" is if you can get one of your opponent's legs with your hand, you then block his other standing leg, he will fall very hard onto the ground.

Old Chinese saying said, "Get both of your opponent's legs if you can, otherwise get one first and then get the other afterward."

[YouKnowWho]

Train practical first, train "cool" stuff later.

This move "飘(Piao) - floating hand" is very similar to the Aikido throw that use hands only without using leg to control your opponent's leg. My teacher told me this is only a "demo" move and he had never seen it used on the mat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSDo...ature=youtu.be

[Yum Cha]

John, I think there are two kinds of attack.

One, where you attack the opponent's centre of gravity and use their momentum against them, like some of the Cung Lee, and some aikido, . I mean the lifts Cung did, just getting under an advancing opponent....
Redirecting force and disrupting.

And there are the precision attacks like yours and David's videos, where you are attacking the supports to the centre of gravity and in essence putting force against force.

Good thread.

[-N-]

This move "飘(Piao) - floating hand" is very similar to the Aikido throw that use hands only without using leg to control your opponent's leg. My teacher told me this is only a "demo" move and he had never seen it used on the mat.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSDo...ature=youtu.be

There is an Aikijitsu version that uses a hip strike on the entry to destabilize the center before the throw. Right hip kao da to right hip.

Is that considered the same as the Aikido and Shuai Chiao ones?

[-N-]

In Judo's osoto gari, if one's timing and explosiveness were enough, you could put the opponent on the ground with only the unbalancing, without the leg control. This might be considered "kao" in CMA. The technique would also be called "aigamae ate" in Aikido. It is a cool concept but its better to focus on the full technique with leg control because it is much more practical.

Train practical first, train "cool" stuff later.

Interesting on the aigamae ate.

Found this on youtube just now.

http://youtu.be/YEbhd4y5txI

A couple weeks ago we were having the students use arm drag hook punch. The footwork was upper leg/hip tip-kao to get the takedown in combination with the strike.

Essentially the same as in this clip, but a closer light entry that explodes, impacts, and sinks as soon as the leg brushes in.

We consider this one a practical move. We use a variation of this as an easy follow-up to the classic au lau choi Praying Mantis attack.

[YouKnowWho]

There is an Aikijitsu version that uses a hip strike on the entry to destabilize the center before the throw. Right hip kao da to right hip.

Is that considered the same as the Aikido and Shuai Chiao ones?

As long as you can force your opponent's arm to be "straight", you can use your hip, or side kick. The one used in SC use the side kick most of the time. When your opponent's arm is straight, if you twist his arm you will get the result for this throw.

John, I think there are two kinds of attack.

One, where you attack the opponent's centre of gravity and use their momentum against them, like some of the Cung Lee, and some aikido, . I mean the lifts Cung did, just getting under an advancing opponent....
Redirecting force and disrupting.

And there are the precision attacks like yours and David's videos, where you are attacking the supports to the centre of gravity and in essence putting force against force.

Good thread.

If you life your opponent up, you don't need to control his leg, since his legs are off the ground any way.

Found this on youtube just now.

http://youtu.be/YEbhd4y5txI

This kind of throw that you don't control your opponent's leg may work on beginners. If you want your throw to work on someone on your level, the leg control is a must,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-5Z...ature=youtu.be

[-N-]

This kind of throw that you don't control your opponent's leg may work on beginners. If you want your throw to work on someone on your level, the leg control is a must,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-5Z...ature=youtu.be

The aikido clip is like front cut, but more gap. He shows right hand push instead of right hand strike.

If my left hand controls his right elbow, and I use right hook punch forearm, and right front cut with the leg very deep, he will still try to block my front cut?

Then my forearm will hit him, no?

[YouKnowWho]

The aikido clip is like front cut, but more gap. He shows right hand push instead of right hand strike.

If my left hand controls his right elbow, and I use right hook punch forearm, and right front cut with the leg very deep, he will still try to block my front cut?

Then my forearm will hit him, no?

The "gap" is the problem. When you apply front cut and you use your left hand to control his wrist, the "gap' is too big. Your left hand should control his left elbow instead. IMO, all the Aikido throw, the "gap" is too big.

Your opponent's head can still dodge under your hook punch. When that happen, he can apply front cut on you since you have just put your leg behind his leading leg. It's called front cut against front cut in SC.

[-N-]

The "gap" is the problem. When you apply front cut and you use your left hand to control his wrist, the "gap' is too big. Your left hand should control his left elbow instead. IMO, all the Aikido throw, the "gap" is too big.

Your opponent's head can still dodge under your hook punch. When that happen, he can apply front cut on you since you have just put your leg behind his leading leg. It's called front cut against front cut in SC.

Ok, agreed.

I just look at his gappy version as the beginner way for people learning.

To really use it, you cannot have gap.

Big part of training is to close instantly.

Praying Mantis hook punch is really forearm.

[pazman]

The "gap" is the problem. When you apply front cut and you use your left hand to control his wrist, the "gap' is too big. Your left hand should control his left elbow instead. IMO, all the Aikido throw, the "gap" is too big.

This is a great observation. Many Aikido players think their techniques work in the same context as Judo or wrestling. Of course this isn't true. My teacher once said "Aikido is Judo at a distance". There are contexts in which being able to execute technique with a big gap might be better.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PIzc6qDnh8

This is also considered aigamae ate. For police and security, there might be contexts where keeping a gap could be useful.

But for general combat, I would not focus on these techniques.