Can TCMA and Christianity mix?

[lkfmdc]

Actually, it is quite simple, its people that try to make it what it isn't that complicate things.
I read Bart's book, as I read his others.
Bart is not on the ball on this one, he seems to be working from a preconceived view ( the apparition hypothesis) and trying to justify it.
Here is the view of one of the scholars he references in his book:
http://larryhurtado.wordpress.com/20...od-per-ehrman/

I'm not really talking about the G'd issue or even Jesus on this one, rather the mental and political gymnastics around Nicea and the Trinity concept

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not really talking about the G'd issue or even Jesus on this one, rather the mental and political gymnastics around Nicea and the Trinity concept

Oh yes, 100% agree.

Sure the Greek Hellenistic culture didn't help but ****, if they could have made it even more complicated and confusing, I'd like to see how !
LOL !
I think that if there is a doctrine in need of "modern grammatical reform" it probably is the trinity doctrine.

[Pipefighter]

+1

I think there is some serious depth to the concept of "trinity", which honestly goes beyond understanding. I don't think it hast ti be tangibly grasped though.

About oneness pentacostals, i thought they were under the umbrella of unitarinaism. My personal experience with jehova's witnesses, mormons, c. Scientists, is that they view the trinity pretty closely to catholics, whith marginal differences of stipulations.

But here's one:

How do you "let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father who is in Heaven?" Since we show ourselves most in adverse situations, and our salvation comes not by works, lest any man should boast

[Kellen Bassette]

The trinity originated with Catholicism. Judaism, Islam, early Christianity and all other Abrahamic traditions, not stemming from the Roman Catholic Church, are monotheistic.
There are plenty of monotheistic branches of Christianity that get lumped into the "protestant" category.

[Pipefighter]

The trinity originated with Catholicism. Judaism, Islam, early Christianity and all other Abrahamic traditions, not stemming from the Roman Catholic Church, are monotheistic.
There are plenty of monotheistic branches of Christianity that get lumped into the "protestant" category.

Meh...
Perhaps the word as a doctrine. You've got a tremendous amount of imagery all the way back to Abraham and God's visit to him as 3 men, to visions to Daniel with multi part God head creatures, plus all the comments of Jesus during his time... "I do only the will of the Father". "It's better that I go so that the comforter will come, the one who instructs"... "Call no man teacher, for there is only one teacher...no man father because we have one father..." Yeah i'm not getting perfect quotes there. Off the top off my head.

However, i am all for tearing down the lingo that we seem to settle back into. We say things like trinity, salvation, the way, faith, grace, light, all having a specific doctrinal meanings rather than personal knowledge from living out the truth in the scriptures. Thats a slippery slope. Easy to find ourselves in the same situation the devout Teachers of the law were when Jesus showed up on the scene

[Kellen Bassette]

Meh...
Perhaps the word as a doctrine. You've got a tremendous amount of imagery all the way back to Abraham and God's visit to him as 3 men, to visions to Daniel with multi part God head creatures, plus all the comments of Jesus during his time... "I do only the will of the Father". "It's better that I go so that the comforter will come, the one who instructs"... "Call no man teacher, for there is only one teacher...no man father because we have one father..." Yeah i'm not getting perfect quotes there. Off the top off my head.

However, i am all for tearing down the lingo that we seem to settle back into. We say things like trinity, salvation, the way, faith, grace, light, all having a specific doctrinal meanings rather than personal knowledge from living out the truth in the scriptures. Thats a slippery slope. Easy to find ourselves in the same situation the devout Teachers of the law were when Jesus showed up on the scene

Not getting into the interpretations of what the scriptures meant, we all know that a 3 different people can read the same thing and come up with 4 different meanings....just saying, Judaism; and by extension the first Christians, were monotheistic. The doctrine of the trinity was later established by the Catholics.

[Pipefighter]

Not getting into the interpretations of what the scriptures meant, we all know that a 3 different people can read the same thing and come up with 4 different meanings....just saying, Judaism; and by extension the first Christians, were monotheistic. The doctrine of the trinity was later established by the Catholics.

True, imagery is very subjective. A christian should take the word of the one that has made him a desciple:

John 17:1-5 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

John 14:16-18, 25-26 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not abandon you as orphans, I will come to you.
“I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

Matthew 28:18-19 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

I'm a monotheist. I believe there is only one God, which is expressed in the Father, the Son, the Spirit. That is expressed in a multiplicitus way that goes much deeper than human philosophy can simply explain or interpret. We only just stumbled onto physics. Why do we think we can dissect the the nature of something eternal. I'll take the word of Jesus at face value here without trying to make any interpretations, since those ones are cut and dry statements

[sanjuro_ronin]

Not getting into the interpretations of what the scriptures meant, we all know that a 3 different people can read the same thing and come up with 4 different meanings....just saying, Judaism; and by extension the first Christians, were monotheistic. The doctrine of the trinity was later established by the Catholics.

Trinity IS monotheistic.
The triune formulas were used in the first and second centuries already.
The notion that Christ, the Son of God, was God ( what else could he be if He was the Son of God?) was present in the writings of Paul ( within 30 years of Christ's death if not sooner), John, Peter and their first generation students.

The Trinity doctrine was formalized and developed to address the Arian controversy and view that Christ was a CREATED being and not "begotten" of God.

[sanjuro_ronin]

True, imagery is very subjective. A christian should take the word of the one that has made him a desciple:

John 17:1-5 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he looked upward to heaven and said, “Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, so that your Son may glorify you— just as you have given him authority over all humanity, so that he may give eternal life to everyone you have given him. Now this is eternal life—that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you sent. I glorified you on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. And now, Father, glorify me at your side with the glory I had with you before the world was created.

John 14:16-18, 25-26 Then I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot accept, because it does not see him or know him. But you know him, because he resides with you and will be in you. “I will not abandon you as orphans, I will come to you.
“I have spoken these things while staying with you. But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you everything, and will cause you to remember everything I said to you.

Matthew 28:18-19 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

John' Gospel, especially chapter 1, and the writings of Paul to the Colosians and Philippians make it clear that Son and father were of the same nature, as does Hebrews and passages in Jude, Peter and so forth, not to mention Revelation.

The issue is actually very simple:
IS Christ the incarnate Word of God? then He is God.

The confusion tends to be that people associate the term GOD for a personal name, the name of the FATHER of Christ and they get into the incorrect mindset that If Christ is God then He is His own father or some silliness like that.

No, what it means that that Father and Son are of the same nature and essences and as such, both are God.

Just like a human father and son are both human ( not exactly the same thing of course but it is the first step in understanding what the Trinity doctrine is supposed to mean).

[RenDaHai]

I really want to understand the trinity but I find it quite difficult.

Perhaps you would help?

Is it a hierarchy of sorts?

Think about a Shadow. A shadow is not begotten, it is appears with the thing. However the thing moves, the shadow must move also. Looking only at the shadow it is impossible to guess the shape of the thing. A shadow and the thing are one, the shadow cannot be torn from it nor forced to act contrary to it. If the thing ceases to exist so too does the shadow. The shadow is born the same instant as the thing.

In the Pagan philosophies of the time (200 A.D?) they also use triune formulas. The trinities are described more this way, as shadows.

So in this way Jesus would be a shadow of the father, the father a shadow of the ghost. So they are all one, but each of different order.

If we ourselves are then a shadow of Jesus, then we should try to imitate Jesus, this is the best we can hope for. If we tried to imitate the Ghost it would be madness because the Ghost is several orders above, like a 6 dimensional shape, unknowable, ineffable, beyond any attempt to comprehend. But Jesus we CAN imitate and aspire to. Jesus is then a comprehensible manifestation of 'the one who is', shown to us because he is the best we are ever capable of understanding.

In this way then god is simultaneously one and many.

Is it like this, where the Father is greater than Jesus, though both are one, or is it not like this at all?

[sanjuro_ronin]

I really want to understand the trinity but I find it quite difficult.

Perhaps you would help?

Is it a hierarchy of sorts?

Think about a Shadow. A shadow is not begotten, it is appears with the thing. However the thing moves, the shadow must move also. Looking only at the shadow it is impossible to guess the shape of the thing. A shadow and the thing are one, the shadow cannot be torn from it nor forced to act contrary to it. If the thing ceases to exist so too does the shadow. The shadow is born the same instant as the thing.

In the Pagan philosophies of the time (200 A.D?) they also use triune formulas. The trinities are described more this way, as shadows.

So in this way Jesus would be a shadow of the father, the father a shadow of the ghost. So they are all one, but each of different order.

If we ourselves are then a shadow of Jesus, then we should try to imitate Jesus, this is the best we can hope for. If we tried to imitate the Ghost it would be madness because the Ghost is several orders above, like a 6 dimensional shape, unknowable, ineffable, beyond any attempt to comprehend. But Jesus we CAN imitate and aspire to. Jesus is then a comprehensible manifestation of 'the one who is', shown to us because he is the best we are ever capable of understanding.

In this way then god is simultaneously one and many.

Is it like this, where the Father is greater than Jesus, though both are one, or is it not like this at all?

It is a doctrine of Nature.
The son of God is begotten by God and what is begotten has the same nature of what is begetting.
God begets God.
But isn't that polytheisim? doesn't that make Jesus "a god"?
Only if we were speaking of the MATERIAL world.
The perfect union of Father, Son and Spirit makes all 3 God ( by nature) and all 3 separate ( per personality).
The spiritual nature of God makes this union possible.

The are NOT 3 different manifestations of the same God nor are they 3 different Gods, nor are they "shadows" of each other.

Paul says it well here and here:

Colossians:
The Incomparable Christ
13 For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things have been created through Him and for Him. 17 He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. 18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Philippians:
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father

[RenDaHai]

Thanks for this, I will try to contemplate these. I still find it quite difficult.

[Pipefighter]

I can relate about it being hard to understand. Perhaps even impossible to understand in a verbal way. If there was a good metaphor to relate it, i think Jesus would have painted that word picture. Instead he said, "I and the father are one" "you believe in Him, believe also in Me" "I only do the will of Him who sent Me".

Theologians can take up a lot of pages trying to explain the tiniest of detail and nuance about such a concept as a spiritual oneness and division in a realm that they have never even been too, talking about things that they cant even comprehend mathematically, let alone with the added layers of morality...
(No insult to you Ronin, i'm tracking)

Some things can only be understood by practice, and only in a way that cant really be explained, but if you get it, and i get, we can relate. One saying from the bible i have come to like is this 1 Corinthians 3:19-20 For the wisdom of this world is folly with God. For it is written, “He catches the wise in their craftiness,” and again, “The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.”

Here is a metaphor about why it isnt so important to understand every subtle perceived nuance of a deep concept like "trinity":

When my teacher showed me a variation of a front cut where I am going to jump into it, he said
"Move in the moment you feel safe... Move in cautiously until you feel safe, then pounce like a tiger and devour him"

I can relate to this feeling, so i dont need a 15 page explanation of what he is talking about, how my blood flow in my pelvis should be channeled at that moment, whether my opponents toes should be pointed up in the air during the throw, or towards the side. I can relate to the feeling he is talking about because i practice what he teaches.
IMO, it is the same concept with christianity and understanding all the super deep points of spiritual existence. Some times you just have to take that little mustard seed and just let it grow.

[David Jamieson]

It is a human concept. Perpetuated by humans.
A trinity concept isn't that hard to get though. It's a common thread in a lot of religions.

Heaven> Earth> Man for instance.

1>2>3>10,000

Vishnu/Bramha/Siva

Jesus/God/ The Holy Spirit

and so on it goes.

It can't be reconciled because it demands faith. It has nothing at all to do with reason, logic or rationale.

[RenDaHai]

It is a human concept. Perpetuated by humans.
A trinity concept isn't that hard to get though. It's a common thread in a lot of religions.

I understand it when its a hierarchy of orders, that makes perfect sense to me, but this is a little more mysterious.
I sense there is something profound I am missing.