Choking out children

[GeneChing]

This news has raised some controversy on the web, so let's discuss it here. What do y'all think? Is this okay?

Martial arts experts and doctors condemn instructor's 'sleeper' hold demonstration
TAYLOR AUERBACH THE DAILY TELEGRAPH DECEMBER 09, 2013 6:27PM

MARTIAL ARTS INSTRUCTOR CHOKES OUT TEENAGE GIRL 0:25
Play video


A martial arts instructor is under fire after putting a sleeper hold on a teenage girl and knocking her out. Courtesy Seven News.

MARTIAL arts experts and medical professors have slammed the actions of a taekwondo instructor who was filmed "choking" one of his students to sleep in a demonstration on the state's north coast.

Video of the incident was obtained by Channel 7 and appears to show sensai Michael Landas putting a sleeper hold on 16-year-old yellow-belt Crystal Trost.

In the clip, Crystal is told to raise her arm in the air - which then drops to her lap when Mr Landas places his bicep around the girl's neck and applies pressure.

After the incident Crystal says: "I just had the weirdest dream ever".

Mr Landas can also be heard telling the class Crystal is about to go "unconscious" before he performs the move.

"It's crazy," said Australian Martial Arts Academy head instructor Sarah Perkins.

"It's unheard of … You're teaching kids to be doing something potentially harmful and you're switching off someone's mind for a period of time.


The parents of Crystal demonstrate how Michael Landas choked her but are not concerned about it. Source: Supplied

"Having a child choked out brings martial arts against everything it should be known for … I wouldn't have my child in a school where they were choked out."

Ms Perkins said her instructors adopted a philosophy of as little contact as possible and said the act depicted in the grainy video borders on child abuse.

"I'm sure parents have gotten in trouble for smacking kids and this is a lot more dangerous," she said.

Michael Landas could not be reached for comment.

The girl's mother Michelle Trost is believed to have filmed the sleeper hold and told Channel 7 she wasn't worried for her daughter's health.

"No, it wasn't disturbing because I knew what was going to happen," she said.

The video has also sparked outcry from health experts, with prominent Sydney surgeon and Daily Telegraph columnist Dr Gordian Fulde comparing the act to a "hanging".

[David Jamieson]

Being a martial arts instructor does not imbue wisdom on anyone.

What's being done here is utterly stupid. the hold does not require the complete follow through for a learner to understand the hold or to get how much pressure to put etc.

Having said that, there are a lot of poorly educated, medically ignorant MA people out there.
To that end, seriously look at who you take as a teacher.

[Dragonzbane76]

wtf is wrong with people. I don't understand some people's mind sets. It doesn't take a genius to understand that a RNC will put someone out. It doesn't take someone getting one put on themselves to understand how to perform one.

[Minghequan]

This is not the way forward and sadly tars us all with the same brush!

But the interesting thing I find here is the lack of posts in response!!!

Something like this which is reprehensible, wrong and highly damaging to the Martial Arts gets only a handful of responses yet those plying their own martial politics and personalized agendas post away without limit.

What a sad thing the Martial Arts have become.

[Jimbo]

But the interesting thing I find here is the lack of posts in response!!!

Something like this which is reprehensible, wrong and highly damaging to the Martial Arts gets only a handful of responses yet those plying their own martial politics and personalized agendas post away without limit.

Agreed, but...to be fair, what else is there to add that hasn't already been said?

IMO, the guy is not only a doofus, but he's taking stupid risks with their lives. How will he know that someone doesn't have a pre-existing condition in which being choked out can have lethal consequences?

There are many MA instructors out there who think that, because they may know something about MA, that they are then experts on everything.

[SPJ]

choke out

tap out

knock out

thrown down

take down

what ever we determine the "end" point of play fight with rules,

serious harm or injury is to be avoided or guarded against.

this applies to both children and adult classes in any gym

is it not ?

[Syn7]

The only time you should put anyone asleep in training is if they refuse to tap. Usually this only has to happen once or twice before they become smart and secure enough to tap. If they don't catch on, don't roll with them. Unless you dislike em and want to put them to sleep, that is. But as far as children are concerned, of course we shouldn't put kids down like that, tap or no tap. For the same reason you don't slam a kid on their head for beakin off the way you would another adult.

[Lucas]

Choke out all the little bastids.

16 years old is old enough, that is not a little kid.

I mean if you are a glorified day care, no. But if you are training people properly, then i dont see the problem. If they have a medical condition that should be disclosed before training.

An instructor should be clear and fully disclose what types of training will take place so that parents and students know what they are getting into.

Are we talking about training fighting arts or not?

Guess what? Kids in school fights DO go for choke holds. Wouldnt you rather your stydents understand first hand on how to do this properly before they go all 'UFC' in a school fight?

Kids will always imitate what they see. Every kid watches mma choke holds and they will and do try this with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject.

Imo its stupid not to prepare kids for the reality of what can very likely happen in a schoolyard fight.

Oh i forgot, martial arts are for pansies now and are not about being properly prepared.

I choked and got choked as a kid and learned.

As long as there is full disclosure from both parties involved, and proper knowledgable instruction then its fine.

The problem is that the vast majority of people receiving martial arts instruction shouldnt be there.

Flame on b1tches

[Kellen Bassette]

Choke out all the little bastids.

Definitely apply the choke, but why do you need to choke them unconscious? If someone is tapping as their eyes start to go dark, they probably realize it is working...

[Lucas]

im guilty of not watching that vid, and also of speaking in generalities. Where im coming from it went like this:

Teacher: today you're going to sleep lucas, ok?

Me: ok.

And that was that. Now i know im not even remotely alone with that experience. People are just too paddy cake in todays world. Look at nearly every martial legend, almost all of them started as kids, and willingly and unwillingly endured more than a friendly sleeper to achieve their goals.

Also, im a d!ck.

If you cant trust your teacher then you should find one that will cater to the needs to change diapers and breast feed the kids

merry freakin christmas! Did u miss me?

[Jimbo]

Choke out all the little bastids.

16 years old is old enough, that is not a little kid.

I mean if you are a glorified day care, no. But if you are training people properly, then i dont see the problem. If they have a medical condition that should be disclosed before training.

An instructor should be clear and fully disclose what types of training will take place so that parents and students know what they are getting into.

Are we talking about training fighting arts or not?

Guess what? Kids in school fights DO go for choke holds. Wouldnt you rather your stydents understand first hand on how to do this properly before they go all 'UFC' in a school fight?

Kids will always imitate what they see. Every kid watches mma choke holds and they will and do try this with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject.

Imo its stupid not to prepare kids for the reality of what can very likely happen in a schoolyard fight.

Oh i forgot, martial arts are for pansies now and are not about being properly prepared.

I choked and got choked as a kid and learned.

As long as there is full disclosure from both parties involved, and proper knowledgable instruction then its fine.

The problem is that the vast majority of people receiving martial arts instruction shouldnt be there.

Flame on b1tches

I trained almost exclusively with adults as a kid (from a younger age than the girl in the vid), and took a LOT of lumps. My personal experience in the '70s was that back then, people were not so protective of children as they are now. The men would spar me about as hard as they would each other. At times I secretly thought about quitting but I didn't, because I thought that's just how MA training is supposed to be. And IMO, traditionally, it is. In time, it toughened me up and, looking back, I'm glad I went through that and wouldn't trade it for the world. But maybe I was lucky that none of the bumps and injuries I had as a result of that period were lasting, AFAIK. So I'm not sure I'd recommend quite the same for a young kid today.

As far as choking out, I agree with Syn7 that it should only happen if they refuse to tap. I realize any medical condition should be disclosed beforehand, but not everybody would be aware of that. How many adults, much less kids, actually get a full medical checkup before taking up training in a MA? Maybe it should be required, but I'm sure a lot of people would go elsewhere if it was a mandatory prerequisite.

[Miqi]

Choke out all the little bastids.

16 years old is old enough, that is not a little kid.

I mean if you are a glorified day care, no. But if you are training people properly, then i dont see the problem. If they have a medical condition that should be disclosed before training.

An instructor should be clear and fully disclose what types of training will take place so that parents and students know what they are getting into.

Are we talking about training fighting arts or not?

Guess what? Kids in school fights DO go for choke holds. Wouldnt you rather your stydents understand first hand on how to do this properly before they go all 'UFC' in a school fight?

Kids will always imitate what they see. Every kid watches mma choke holds and they will and do try this with absolutely zero knowledge on the subject.

Imo its stupid not to prepare kids for the reality of what can very likely happen in a schoolyard fight.

Oh i forgot, martial arts are for pansies now and are not about being properly prepared.

I choked and got choked as a kid and learned.

As long as there is full disclosure from both parties involved, and proper knowledgable instruction then its fine.

The problem is that the vast majority of people receiving martial arts instruction shouldnt be there.

Flame on b1tches

Hmm... at the risk of you, my hero, thinking I'm a b!tch, I'd say that the reverse is true - that most people teaching martial arts shouldn't be there. Including you. Oh hold on, you're not my hero.

[Lucas]

Good, i shouldnt be anybodies hero. And i dont want to teach martial arts, training is all i want, i practice for selfish reasons. The only person that can decide if you're a b!tch is you. When the going gets tough, one either b!thes out or they dont. well unless you're small and in prison, with a pretty moith, then you might not get a choice.

[SteveLau]

SPJ said it well. We should not do it to other students, whether they are adult or children. And we should refuse to be applied with this dangerous move, even the person is trust worthy. IMHO, there is no person who can be trusted 100% to do such dangerous thing.


KC
Hong Kong

[-N-]

Any volunteers?