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Thread: Did Wong sheung Leung lost a challenge match to a Chow Gar mantis practioner

  1. #1
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    Did Wong sheung Leung lost a challenge match to a Chow Gar mantis practioner

    Wong sheung Leung almost killed in a challenge match by Chow Gar mantis practioner
    http://www.chowgar.freewebspace.com/wingchun.htm

    "Chow Gar Mantis vs Wing Chun

    Wong Shun Leung Visits Ip Sui's Kwoon

    Before I begin this story, I want to make it clear that this is in no way intended to put Chow Gar Mantis up as superior to the Wing Chun system, and no offence is intended to any Wing Chun player. This is simply a legend related to me by my Sifu. This legend is, in a way, a tribute to the late Wing Chun Master, best known as Bruce Lee's Sifu in the early years. I say tribute because it depicts Sifu Leung in a situation where he found himself often. And on a personal note, my first ever Sifu, who taught me Wing Chun Chuan, trained under Sifu Wong Shun Leung in Australia for some time, so I suppose in a way he was my first SiGong.
    Everyone who knows anything about Sifu Wong Shun Leung knows that he loved to fight. It was this fact that first brought him to the school of the late Wing Chun Grandmaster, Yip Man. On crossing hands with Yip Man, he very quickly realised that he was no match for the Grandmaster, and asked if he would take him as his student. It would appear that this 'fighting spirit' never really dwindled as Wong Shun Leung progressed in his training, as one day, he appeared at the school of Grandmaster Ip Sui...
    He had come to cross hands with the Grandmaster, which is probably bordering on the disrespectful. Even so, you have to admire his spirit. Grandmaster Ip Sui, who was teaching a class at the time, turned down the request, but suggested a contest between the curious student, and one of his own students, Mr Choy Su Wing.
    The Southern Mantis system is ideal for those with a long, slender physique, just like the characteristics of the mantis itself. It also places great emphasis on internal training's, to generate strength and power. Choy Su Wing is tall, but very powerful. Both students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.
    In the blink of an eye, Mr Choy used the powerful 'Cum La' seizing hand technique, grabbing Wong Shun by the throat and the arm. From many years of training the Mantis Clawing technique his hands and arms were as solid as iron bars. Try as he might, and the story goes that he put up a hell of a fight, Wong Shun was unable to remove them. Mr Choy's arms were too long to enable Wong Shun to put a kick in - Mr Choy walked him into the corner by his throat, and held him there. At once, he released his arm and raised his hand to drop the devastating Gow Choi (Tiger comes down the mountain) hammer hand technique upon his head.
    Gow choi is an extremely serious technique to use - Grandmaster Ip Sui, who had been watching this turn of events closely, moved quickly to Mr Choy's side, and as he brought his hand crashing down towards Wong Shun's head, Grandmaster slapped his arm across, so the technique missed the target.
    Grandmaster broke up the session, telling Wong Shun Leung that he had seen what he had come to see, and that he should leave. Wong Shun Leung was quite lucky that day.
    As an endnote, Grandmaster Ip Sui travelled to the school of Yip Man, to ask him why he had sent his student to his school to make trouble. Yip Man said that he had no involvement in this. Wong Shun Leung had made the decision to go to Ip Sui's school of his own accord...
    Wong Shun Leung will always be remembered as a spirited fighter, and someone who believed in the merits of the Challenge Match. Not so much today, where, too often, Kung Fu is a game, a hobby, something to do in our spare time. We could all learn something from Sifu Leung. Kung Fu is also about having heart and the guts to put yourself on the spot.
    Today, Sifu Choy Su Wing is in good health and living in Hong Kong, aged 72.
    Wong Shun Leung.... 1935-1997 "

  2. #2
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    First thought is, if he did get beat so easily I wonder why he didn’t change style, second thought is these stories always differ depending on which side of the style divide you are, Ip Sui told a story about defeating the Master of Southern dragon, the dragon guys talk about their founder having lots of challenge matches and always winning, I suppose all we can say with certainty is WSL was known to fight, Ip Sui’s school was known as a serious one who took challenges seriously, both had good reps and that’s about all we can say

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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Both students faced off, and Wong Shun Leung charged in.
    Sounds opposite of fighting strategy he taught...

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Sounds opposite of fighting strategy he taught...
    What was the strategy he advocated? I remember Duncan Leung writing that when he saw WSL fight, WSL almost always entered with a kick and then simply continued with a series of straight punches.

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    Well, however accurate the description, "faced off" and then "charged in" sounds a bit rash to be WSL.

    "What I Have Learnt Through 'Beimo'"
    2. GIVING THE ENEMY THE OPPORTUNITY TO STRIKE FIRST

    To win or lose a fight often depends on who watches for his chance to attack the enemy first when both sides are fighting. As Sun Zi said, “When an invading force crosses a river in its onward march, it is best to let half the army get across, and then deliver your attack.” You will reap twice the result with half the effort if the attack is launched with such favourable timing as the opponent’s intention, developments and movements can all be readily determined. Should this strategy be applied, the opponent will find it especially difficult to co-ordinate his body, making advance or retreat virtually impossible and the loss of the fight by him inevitable. A common error made by inexperienced Wing Chun practitioners is to throw their punches from too far away, leaving a lot of distance between their opponent and themselves. As one can see from the pictures fig.7, fig.8 and fig.9, such a clumsy and rash move gives the enemy the opportunity to attack first.

    Therefore, when engaged in combat with an opponent, never be impatient. Do not launch an attack until there’s a distance of one step between you and your enemy, then launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared. Launching a sudden attack in this way, one gains the advantage of an extra step towards the enemy, making it extremely difficult for him to react in time, the result normally being a feeble attempt to move half a step to the right or left, or else retreat straight backwards. This makes it very easy to remain in contact with the enemy, maintaining control of the situation by affecting the enemy’s balance and positioning. You therefore avoid giving him the chance to attack first and take away his opportunity to manage the situation.

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    yep because "launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared."
    really doesnt sound like "charged in"......

  7. #7
    Being hit during a fight is not the issue, does it stop you from fighing ? WSL also mentioned this fact, if you think vt makes you untouchable you're in for a surprise. WSL mentioned being hit during fights and using it as a base to improve and avoid again. Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight. The Jum elbow not being low enough. After discussing with YM it was added. WSL fighting stance starts with parallel feet to avoid low leg kicks. He also fought mt and learned.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 01-07-2014 at 10:07 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    yep because "Do not launch an attack until there’s a distance of one step between you and your enemy, then launch a sudden attack so as to force the enemy to be caught totally unprepared."
    really doesnt sound like "charged in"......
    Fixed that for you...

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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight.
    Gaun sau has always been in SNT. Ip Man lineage isn't the only lineage to have gaan sau as part of their form. Example: it's always been in HFY's SNT - long before WSL needed to use it in a fight. And HFY is seperate from Ip Man lineage and had nothing to do with WSL. So isn't it a safer guess that at some point gaan sau was taken OUT by Ip Man (or one of his teachers) prior to WSL's fight and then put back in later? But it's pretty silly to think a technique was added to SNT not too long ago simply because of one guy's fight he had. How do you explain it being in other non-Ip Man lineages SNT?

    Besides all of that, are you saying that WSL WC practitioners use their hands below the waist to block kicks to the thigh? Doesn't that violate a few main WC principles, some being self-centerline and economy of motion, since you would have to bend forward to effective use techniques that low?
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Gaun sau has always been in SNT. Ip Man lineage isn't the only lineage to have gaan sau as part of their form. Example: it's always been in HFY's SNT - long before WSL needed to use it in a fight. And HFY is seperate from Ip Man lineage and had nothing to do with WSL. So isn't it a safer guess that at some point gaan sau was taken OUT by Ip Man (or one of his teachers) prior to WSL's fight and then put back in later? But it's pretty silly to think a technique was added to SNT not too long ago simply because of one guy's fight he had. How do you explain it being in other non-Ip Man lineages SNT?

    Besides all of that, are you saying that WSL WC practitioners use their hands below the waist to block kicks to the thigh? Doesn't that violate a few main WC principles, some being self-centerline and economy of motion, since you would have to bend forward to effective use techniques that low?
    Gaun sao was in Bil Gee then put into slt. What others have done ? Ironically the Jum sao disappeared from many slt for gaun sao , go figure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Gaun sao was in Bil Gee then put into slt. What others have done ? Ironically the Jum sao disappeared from many slt for gaun sao , go figure.
    Ok, so you're just talking about WSL lineage SNT then.

    Still not sure how you are advocating using gaan sau to defend kicks below the waist and keeping with WC principles, specially at SNT level...
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

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    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    it's always been in HFY's SNT - long before WSL needed to use it in a fight. And HFY is seperate from Ip Man lineage.
    I am not going to touch this one, except to say gan sao was always part of William Cheung's TWC lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    Gaun sao was put into slt after he was hit in the upper thigh during a fight. The Jum elbow not being low enough. After discussing with YM it was added.
    Hey Kev, As far As I know the gan sao was in the SLT of Chan Wah Shun, due to him being a taller/bigger fighter, he generally fought shorter people. But later on Yip Man allegedly learnt from Leung Bik, whom was a smaller man like yip man, so yip man was more influenced by him and he had the jum sao instead of the gan sao in his SLT. So yip man knew both versions of SLT, Yip simply showed the other option to WSL after he got hit trying to block a low attack with jum sao.

    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    WSL fighting stance starts with parallel feet to avoid low leg kicks.
    Are you referring to the side stance with parallel feet?


    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    He also fought mt and learned.
    Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

    And what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 01-07-2014 at 11:06 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Ok, so you're just talking about WSL lineage SNT then.

    Still not sure how you are advocating using gaan sau to defend kicks below the waist and keeping with WC principles, specially at SNT level...
    I never mentioned how " we " deal with kicks.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    I am not going to touch this one, except to say gan sao was always part of William Cheung's TWC lol.



    Hey Kev, As far As I know the gan sao was in the SLT of Chan Wah Shun, due to him being a taller/bigger fighter, he generally fought shorter people. But later on Yip Man allegedly learnt from Leung Bik, whom was a smaller man like yip man, so yip man was more influenced by him and he had the jum sao instead of the gan sao in his SLT. So yip man knew both versions of SLT, Yip simply showed the other option to WSL after he got hit trying to block a low attack with jum sao.



    Are you referring to the side stance with parallel feet?



    Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

    And what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?
    Without Jum sao the system doesn't function. So gaun in slt, out of slt no bigge as long as its in the system.....Jum sao is most important and needs to be trained very early on. Why we do so much elbow work. Gaun sao elbow spreads out off the line and chases ; )

    Yes side facing stances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    He also fought mt and learned.
    Can you tell us a little more about WSL experience with Muai Thai, when did he fight the Thai's, was it during the 1960's when yip man sent a team of wing chun fighters to fight against the thais?

    And besides the use of side stances what specificly did he modified in the wing chun system to deal with fighting with muai thai fighters?

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