Old Thread Revised-Full Contact Kung Fu

[kung fu fighter]

Hi
Has anyone on this forum ever competed in, or saw how w.c. is used in full contact kung fu tornaments (san shou). How was w.c. used. Does anyone have footage of this especially from china.

Thanks
kung fu fighter

[Phil Redmond]

Some students of Duncan Leung competed in full contact at Madison Square Gardens years ago. I fought full contact using Wing Chun. In the Fu Jow Pai matches elbows, takedowns, and knees were allowed. I fought in one of those and won.
Phil

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Phil,
I trained with sifu Sonny Whitmore in N.Y. and i also got a ranking from the Traditional wing chun Assoc. from him. So i am familiar with some of the T.W.C stuff. I heard that william Cheung's student Rick Spain also won full contact fighting. Did he used T.W.C or his kuokoshinkai stuff. Duncan Leung had a student by the name of Steve Falkner that competed in a mixed martial art tornament here in canada called extreme fighting but he was taken down by a russian sambo guy before he was able to do anything. I didn't get a chance to see much. How did Duncan leung teach you guys to use the wing chun footwork to adjust distance and angle in this invironment. Can i get a copy of the tape with Duncan students competing at madison square gardens. Someone mentioned that Dduncan's older material was much better than what he is currently teaching. What's your opinion on this?
I will be competing in my first professional full contact kung fu fight and would like to showcase my w.c. skills as appose to my thaiboxing stuff, any technical help would be appreciated from anyone on the forum.

Thanks
Kung fu fighter

[hunt1]

I have a student that won the Battle of Tampabay a year or two ago. One of the biggest things was adjusting his footwork for a ring. Some wing chun has kinda dead footwork some has alive. Must have alive footwork and 50/50 as your base and cant be on your heels. Again some wing chun heel shifts and tend to fall back onto heals some dont. Dont know you so cant be specific. Other thing is what kind of gloves are you using. 10 ounce ,8 ounce,mma gloves etc all require different changes to your basic wing chun hand usage. My experience is that wing chun works just fine in a ring. Best thing to do is train using the exact rules and ring that you will fight in. Understanding how to use the ring or mat space available is very important.

[SAAMAG]

What systems of wing chun are not based on the heels? I didn't know there was any.

[sihing]

The WC I use isn't based on the heel for our stance work. In SLT, we are balanced 50/50 weight, and the down the center of the foot. This does not change when using it in combat, at least the best we can because you can't always stay 50/50 weighted, is so try kicking. On the heels IMO opinion would leave you to back weighted and pushed off balance and harder to initiate any sort of effective attack. 100/0 weighted will leave you more imobile and committed to that back leg structure. Its important to have the ability to move equally in any and all directions at any time, and this is most efficiently done in 50/50 stances. Feet are slightly wider than shoulder width, for a stable yet mobile stance with footwork. I agree, active footwork is the key in combat, rather than stationary non moving target type philosophies..

James

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
Hi Phil,
I trained with sifu Sonny Whitmore in N.Y. and i also got a ranking from the Traditional wing chun Assoc. from him. So i am familiar with some of the T.W.C stuff. I heard that william Cheung's student Rick Spain also won full contact fighting. Did he used T.W.C or his kuokoshinkai stuff. Duncan Leung had a student by the name of Steve Falkner that competed in a mixed martial art tornament here in canada called extreme fighting but he was taken down by a russian sambo guy before he was able to do anything. I didn't get a chance to see much. How did Duncan leung teach you guys to use the wing chun footwork to adjust distance and angle in this invironment. Can i get a copy of the tape with Duncan students competing at madison square gardens. Someone mentioned that Dduncan's older material was much better than what he is currently teaching. What's your opinion on this?
I will be competing in my first professional full contact kung fu fight and would like to showcase my w.c. skills as appose to my thaiboxing stuff, any technical help would be appreciated from anyone on the forum.

Thanks
Kung fu fighter

The Duncan Leung students who fought were Joel and Gary Young, Raul Zapata, Willie Arroyo, Joe Pelican and a few other that I don't remember. It was in the 70's as you can tell by my disco shirt and Afro. I don't think there were many if any camcorders back then. Sifu Duncan Leung or Sifu Alan Lee would probably know if there is any sort of footage.
PR

[Phil Redmond]

Originally posted by kung fu fighter
. . . . . I will be competing in my first professional full contact kung fu fight and would like to showcase my w.c. skills as appose to my thaiboxing stuff, any technical help would be appreciated from anyone on the forum.

Thanks
Kung fu fighter

Simply look at WC as a system of principles instead of techniques and adapt them to what you already know.
PR

[KPM]

Originally posted by Vankuen
What systems of wing chun are not based on the heels? I didn't know there was any.

Yuen Kay Shan WCK, Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK, Leung Sheung's line of Yip Man WCK (including Leung Ting), Mai Gei Wong WCK, some other various in Yip Man WCK such as I believe Sam Kwok...... Most non-Yip Man WCK uses the K1 point as the pivot point and not the heel.

Keith

[t_niehoff]

KPM wrote: Most non-Yip Man WCK uses the K1 point as the pivot point and not the heel.

**Is that because it is their "lego piece" (and so you must do it that way) or do you understand, via function, the advantages and disadvantages to the K1 weighting? Many teach these things as "the way of doing it" instead of "a way of doing it", and exploring the whens and whys of each. Again, in my view, these things are beyond lineage.

**Anyone that fights (applies WCK) will find themselves not standing and being weighted on their heels (flatfooted) unless the are pressing or lifting or otherwise receiving the opponent's pressure (since the arch in the foot acts as a spring, and standing on K1 allows one to engage that natural spring, but when pressure is applied, it flattens the arch and the heel comes into play -- this is just normal, everyday mechanics). If you look at *any* Yip Man student that had much fighting experience, like WSL, you'll see him moving on the balls of his feet (K1).

[SAAMAG]

So then when they pivot (turning stance or chor ma) then do their heels swing, or their toes? I'm trying to figure this out because if the weighting point is K1 (ball of the foot) that would mean their heels would be swinging around when they pivot and therefore their center as well.

Don't get me wrong, I do in fact use various parts of my feet as the weighting points and usually when moving, will always be on the balls of my feet, only going to the heels when it's necessary to perform a movement that facilitates the need for it.

But from a wing chun standpoint, I don't see how one can keep their center in place while pivoting on anything but the heels, assuming they are rooted and not intending to give ground or step in any minor fashion.

Oh, and my very limited experience with the LT line, of course through EBMAS, still uses the heel so far from what I've seen, as well as 0/100 weighting when fighting. (Both a no-no in my opinion for "real fighting"). ALthough their heel pivots are very slight in comparison to most heel pivoting WC.

[MRH]

I turn with the centre of the foot so both the heels and toe move.
This gives me the same stability all through the turn.

With a previuos teacher I turned on the heels and worried about my stability through the turn.

Turning on the centre of the foot rather than the heel and toe works for me and feels a lot more stable in the stance.

[KPM]

KPM wrote: Most non-Yip Man WCK uses the K1 point as the pivot point and not the heel.

**Is that because it is their "lego piece" (and so you must do it that way) or do you understand, via function, the advantages and disadvantages to the K1 weighting? Many teach these things as "the way of doing it" instead of "a way of doing it", and exploring the whens and whys of each. Again, in my view, these things are beyond lineage.

---You can interpret it any way you want. The fact is that most non-Yip Man WCK pivots on the K1 point. KPM

** If you look at *any* Yip Man student that had much fighting experience, like WSL, you'll see him moving on the balls of his feet (K1).

---Maybe so. But WSL pivoted on the heels when doing the Tor Ma. KPM


Keith

[KPM]

So then when they pivot (turning stance or chor ma) then do their heels swing, or their toes? I'm trying to figure this out because if the weighting point is K1 (ball of the foot) that would mean their heels would be swinging around when they pivot and therefore their center as well.

---That's right. Heel pivot = toes swing, K1 pivot = heels swing. KPM

But from a wing chun standpoint, I don't see how one can keep their center in place while pivoting on anything but the heels, assuming they are rooted and not intending to give ground or step in any minor fashion.

---Works perfectly well. I was a "heel-turner" for many years and thought the same way. Someway convinced me to practice the K1 turn enough to become proficient in it and I haven't looked back since. KPM

Oh, and my very limited experience with the LT line, of course through EBMAS, still uses the heel so far from what I've seen,

---I think you need to take another look. Unless Emin has made some changes to what Leung Ting taught him, the Leung Ting lineage is big on pivoting on the K1 point. KPM

Keith

[YongChun]

Let's not fight about it and agree to pivot on the point half way in between the two extremes.