PBVT Sparring Clip

[Sean66]

No problem Frost, it's all good.
We're all passionate about what we do, and that's what counts

But I do agree with you, the VT vertical punch is not the most powerful punch that the body can deliver.

[Wayfaring]

Your uninformed opinions of a guy you never met .....

Sure absolutely. However, that doesn't discount the points I am making.

What I'm starting to see is people excel at that which they are training for. For example, a MMA fighter starts to excel over time at what happens in a ring or cage. When what people are training for is one-off individual chi sau exchanges with other people, then that is the skillset that develops - skill in handling one-off individual chi sau exchanges.

This doesn't really translate to other areas necessarily. Self defense - really don't want to go there as in our modern world between legal barriers and cultural barriers avoidance and some form of a weapon are probably better options and it's too broad a topic to really get anywhere. Sporting - not much application - the chi sau competitions there are few and far between and not popular. Health - I don't know how that would increase health. So then people start comparing this to ring or cage fights, but it's not really what they are training for. Actually I think that is one of the problems. Lack of clarity of what people are training for.

All I'm trying to do is optimize my training so that I don't fall into repetitive cycling drills or unrealistic mobility or pressure. Trying to make it "real" as far as fighting skills. Those are the basis of my comments - could care less about people's bread bowls so I just tell it like I see it.

[k gledhill]

Sure absolutely. However, that doesn't discount the points I am making.

What I'm starting to see is people excel at that which they are training for. For example, a MMA fighter starts to excel over time at what happens in a ring or cage. When what people are training for is one-off individual chi sau exchanges with other people, then that is the skillset that develops - skill in handling one-off individual chi sau exchanges.

This doesn't really translate to other areas necessarily. Self defense - really don't want to go there as in our modern world between legal barriers and cultural barriers avoidance and some form of a weapon are probably better options and it's too broad a topic to really get anywhere. Sporting - not much application - the chi sau competitions there are few and far between and not popular. Health - I don't know how that would increase health. So then people start comparing this to ring or cage fights, but it's not really what they are training for. Actually I think that is one of the problems. Lack of clarity of what people are training for.

All I'm trying to do is optimize my training so that I don't fall into repetitive cycling drills or unrealistic mobility or pressure. Trying to make it "real" as far as fighting skills. Those are the basis of my comments - could care less about people's bread bowls so I just tell it like I see it.

Until you ( try ) and stand toe toe with PB you will never know. Drills are just like pad work, speed ball, double end bag.....isolating qualities. Lap sao is a " heading " to describe a series of sub drills under one module. The emphasis is to be relaxed and repeat elbow alignment, timing, techniques with movement and a mutual goal, not full contact to ko a partner. It's not a sparring session. When I post a clip and it's a DRILL, aimed at speed of action reaction....then get posts like " it's slapping " you're ignorant . Ask a question with an open mind, don't make assumptions based on ignorance and prejudice.

[Vajramusti]

No problem Frost, it's all good.
We're all passionate about what we do, and that's what counts

But I do agree with you, the VT vertical punch is not the most powerful punch that the body can deliver.

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Are you speaking of your punch rather than every body's VT/WC punch?

[JPinAZ]

It's not a sparring session. When I post a clip and it's a DRILL, aimed at speed of action reaction....then get posts like " it's slapping " you're ignorant . Ask a question with an open mind, don't make assumptions based on ignorance and prejudice.

Ok, if the clips here aren't of sparring, maybe someone should change the title of this and the many other threads like it, because they all look like the same'ol drill to me (and obviously from the comments - not just me).
And drilling's fine - as long as it doesn't start to get confused with, and labeled as, what's it's not.

[Wayfaring]

Until you ( try ) and stand toe toe with PB you will never know. Drills are just like pad work, speed ball, double end bag.....isolating qualities. Lap sao is a " heading " to describe a series of sub drills under one module. The emphasis is to be relaxed and repeat elbow alignment, timing, techniques with movement and a mutual goal, not full contact to ko a partner. It's not a sparring session. When I post a clip and it's a DRILL, aimed at speed of action reaction....then get posts like " it's slapping " you're ignorant . Ask a question with an open mind, don't make assumptions based on ignorance and prejudice.

Listen I only got drawn into this argument because one of your more ardent PB fanboi types started the whole "haters" BS because someone brought up a valid talking point that may involve a touch of critique of PB.

My first response was to clarify the criticism. The criticism is that pretty much ALL clips look like this. So whether all you guys want to admit this or not, the ONLY thing we see pretty much is those drills. We never see a sparring session posted up. Now we can speculate why this is all day I suppose, and people can call me ignorant because I haven't seen a sparring clip of PB as there are none up only these drills. OK. Put one up so I'm not so ignorant. I may not have the chance to visit PB, and even if I did I'd be polite and respectful and not be trying to duplicate a Boztepe incident regardless of what I could or could not do. So what other way is there to evaluate?

I tend to evaluate things more according to Occam's Razor, where the hypothesis with the fewest assumptions is preferred. As such, the conclusion I would draw is that the reason there are a plethora of videos up on YouTube surrounding these types of drills is because that is the activity that is the major focus of all the training sessions and seminars where PB is and people are taking video. As such, sparring is probably not the major focus of activity when PB is around. And, I'm making the Cap'n Obvious observation that what people focus on is what they get good at over time. Drills, or sparring/fighting. And if someone posts a title that says "PBVT Sparring Clip" what conclusions about the content should I draw? That it contains drills? All right, fine. From now on every time a member of PBVT uses the word "sparring" all of us on the board will know for you guys that means not fighting sparring but drilling.

You call all this prejudice and ignorance. I call it common sense.

[Wayfaring]

..what? "ardent fanboi"? Complete with hip boi spelling? ... Really?
No. I answered honestly and not because someone "brought up a valid talking point". I simply pointed out the variety of drills usually seen in the clips that others seem to reduce to "just the same bong lop drill"
Your following reply actually cleared it up for me when you said it wasnt full contact and what you thought you could do against it.......I realised you dont seem to understand (or appreciate) the purpose and function of these training drills, and are judging them as if they were fighting and/or full contact sparring.

What are you on about here? I agree with you regarding the lack of variety in the drills. And I am wrongly judging them as if they are fighting or full contact sparring? The nerve of me to think they would be sparring in a thread with the title "PBVT Sparring Clip".

To me, its like looking at a boxer on a speed ball and saying "That's rubbish I could just kick him in the nut"s"
Its a training drill that is being judged out of context.

Oh, we're doing analogies now? OK. To me its like seeing a clip with one guy doing speed bag drills the other one kicking him in the nuts, and a third videoing it, posting it, and labeling it "Sparring Clips".

[BPWT.]

I suppose the problem is that the thread, and the title on the video itself (the original video clip), says 'sparring' - and for most people this is not what most people would call sparring.

Not sure what to call it, to be honest - maybe.. Unchoreographed One-Step Workout? For the most part that original clip features one person getting in with a strike, and then the two of them re-set. I don't see anything wrong with this as a training method, by the by, as a method mixed in with other training methods. Perhaps it might be said that this is a PBVT pre-sparring exercise?

To be honest, I train methods similar to this too - and I think it has value.

The original poster, LFJ, said himself "Granted it is controlled and not continuous."

But LFJ also said something that I wouldn't agree with. He said: "The good thing about it though, is that it doesn't fall apart and turn into slap fighting when it comes away from the chi-sau environment, like so many others."

Well, I agree that it doesn't become an uncontrolled mess, as things often do, but this is precisely because it is One-Step (or rather One Hit), and the person who gets through doesn't continue and try to dominate the exchange with further hits, but resets and they start again. Under those circumstances there's no reason for things to fall apart.

Also, I'd disagree that this original clip is of two people exchanging when they've come away from the Chi Sau environment. For me, they were in the Chi Sao environment (there was plenty of controlling bridge work/bridge contact) during the clip, it just didn't start from the Poon Sao environment. So what I'm seeing in that clip is similar to what we'd call Lat Sao - starting the process from non-contact.

[JPinAZ]

What are you on about here? I agree with you regarding the lack of variety in the drills. And I am wrongly judging them as if they are fighting or full contact sparring? The nerve of me to think they would be sparring in a thread with the title "PBVT Sparring Clip".

You're not the only one thinking this way. The guys here posting and defending the clips and saying they aren't sparring, all the while it's supposed to be a 'sparring clip' thread..

Oh, we're doing analogies now? OK. To me its like seeing a clip with one guy doing speed bag drills the other one kicking him in the nuts, and a third videoing it, posting it, and labeling it "Sparring Clips".

LOL!!!

[Wayfaring]

What are you in about?. I'm saying there is a great variety in the drills ...Its just some people can't see that and reduce what they see to "bong lop".

And other people see that there are a great variety of techniques involved, but the exact same application in fighting scenario. Some can't see that.

Regardless of the thread title, you surely must know that my comments refer to the (non-sparring) clips that are labeled as "just bong lop" ?

I know that you are obsessing over one phrase of one poster and not getting the point of what he was saying.

[Frost]

it doesnt turn into a slap fest because there is no contact.
Its really nothing more than chi sao done at a non contact range, both parties are doing wing chun attacks and not making any contact, wing chun will always work in that situation, hell any art will work if both parties agree to use it and to not hit each other......but it will turn into a slap fest as soon as they actually start hitting each other and working against non wing chun attacks

The above is from page 1, and I stand bynit and agree with wayfrangs comments, we hear all about the hard sparring and contact, about turning bjj blackbelts into whites with super hard strikes, yet all we see is drills and non contact semi sparring, what's more likely that the cameras just get turned off when this happens, or that this type of drilling is what the vast majority of their time is spent on??

[Graham H]

all we hear all about the hard sparring and contact, about turning bjj blackbelts into whites with super hard strikes, yet all we see is drills and non contact semi sparring, what's more likely that the cameras just get turned off when this happens, or that this type of drilling is what the vast majority of their time is spent on??

Funnily enough that is the only truthful statement you have written for a while Frost. If you were to look further than your mobile phone, tablet or PC screen you may actually come to realize that one day.

[anerlich]

Wow, so only an mma guy can hit hard : )

No, but unlike yourself they can come up with original quips.

[k gledhill]

No, but unlike yourself they can come up with original quips.

My quipping is irrelevant, my punch will speak for itself.

[Wayfaring]

My quipping is irrelevant, my punch will speak for itself.

mine doesn't. maybe amongst my training partners. but beyond that I have serious doubts about how many people it is I'm actually going to punch. like for example i'm not going to punch someone for being wrong on the internet.