I think Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice for MMA

[sanjuro_ronin]

I think that Rhonda is making such a huge impact because (also) the talent pool is not as big as in the men.
Not to take ANYTHING away from her ELITE ability in judo of course.

[MightyB]

I think that Rhonda is making such a huge impact because (also) the talent pool is not as big as in the men.
Not to take ANYTHING away from her ELITE ability in judo of course.

..........

[Pipefighter]

Hey, MightyB! I totally missed your quote response from back when. When i said, "why waste all that energy fighting on the ground anyway? ". And you said "its 2014."

Not to distract from Rousey, BTW! She is way more interesting. And i like to see the headlock being used in mma, even if it is a Judoka doing it.

I'm kind of saying the same thing, its 2014! There are a ton of ground submission guys out there. Up until a year ago i was still content to go to the ground in sport situations. I know some locks and chokes from shooto and combat submission wrestling, and collegiate (like the twister, banana split, bull dog, front choke, etc...) and have used em in tournaments, so i figured i would try and stay on my feet, but if i went to the ground i could just work for a sub really quick. I finally had an opportunity to roll consistently with some world class bjj guys. I like sub wrestling as a sport. Its fun and much less painful and abusive than wrestling. But i realized that the BEST case scenario for me rolling with that caliber of guys is to Avoid being tapped. I also roll with some guys who do judo with Olympic level guys and they tap me too if i go to the mat with them and stay down there. So the options for a wrestler when we go to the ground is basically avoid getting tapped and pound em. However, there are globs of guys out there who work constantly on the counters to that approach. If I may be so bold, that approach may be a bit antiquated for the mma. If college wrestlers, who can pretty well decide weather or not the fight will remain on the ground, decide to train to avoid staying on the ground, i think they would open a new window/door of fighting concept in mainstream mma. As a college wrestler, i know how hard it is to make the mental switch for that, and it takes additional training to learn to stay up.
If Shuai Chiao was more widely understood and wrestlers who now fight trained in SC, i think it would have a huge effect on the landscape of the UFC.
If a guy spends 15 yrs wrestling(1/2 on stand up, half on ground), and competes with a guy who spends 80% of his 15 yrs working ground submissions, then we make a rule set where you cant win by pin or submission, just by sub/ko, then why would the wrestler waste time on the ground fighting an uphill battle if he understands he doesn't have to.
Some one told me years ago, "why do you cut weight? Isn't it tougher to beat a bigger guy than to scamper away from him and drop weight?" That comment fell on deaf ears because wrestling to me was cutting weight. Now i am a strong proponent for healthy weight and advise all wrestlers to never cut weight. If its in a wrestlers mind to bring everyone to the ground and pound them, thats a hard mentality to break. But maybe Cung Le will help to break that mental block. I hope the ex wrestlers who train fighters can experience some real shuai chiao guys enough to inspire them to cross train in it and develop a root they never had before to enable a stronger way of what they already have good skill in.

[MightyB]

Hey, MightyB! I totally missed your quote response from back when. When i said, "why waste all that energy fighting on the ground anyway? ". And you said "its 2014."

Not to distract from Rousey, BTW! She is way more interesting. And i like to see the headlock being used in mma, even if it is a Judoka doing it.

I'm kind of saying the same thing, its 2014! There are a ton of ground submission guys out there. Up until a year ago i was still content to go to the ground in sport situations. I know some locks and chokes from shooto and combat submission wrestling, and collegiate (like the twister, banana split, bull dog, front choke, etc...) and have used em in tournaments, so i figured i would try and stay on my feet, but if i went to the ground i could just work for a sub really quick. I finally had an opportunity to roll consistently with some world class bjj guys. I like sub wrestling as a sport. Its fun and much less painful and abusive than wrestling. But i realized that the BEST case scenario for me rolling with that caliber of guys is to Avoid being tapped. I also roll with some guys who do judo with Olympic level guys and they tap me too if i go to the mat with them and stay down there. So the options for a wrestler when we go to the ground is basically avoid getting tapped and pound em. However, there are globs of guys out there who work constantly on the counters to that approach. If I may be so bold, that approach may be a bit antiquated for the mma. If college wrestlers, who can pretty well decide weather or not the fight will remain on the ground, decide to train to avoid staying on the ground, i think they would open a new window/door of fighting concept in mainstream mma. As a college wrestler, i know how hard it is to make the mental switch for that, and it takes additional training to learn to stay up.
If Shuai Chiao was more widely understood and wrestlers who now fight trained in SC, i think it would have a huge effect on the landscape of the UFC.
If a guy spends 15 yrs wrestling(1/2 on stand up, half on ground), and competes with a guy who spends 80% of his 15 yrs working ground submissions, then we make a rule set where you cant win by pin or submission, just by sub/ko, then why would the wrestler waste time on the ground fighting an uphill battle if he understands he doesn't have to.
Some one told me years ago, "why do you cut weight? Isn't it tougher to beat a bigger guy than to scamper away from him and drop weight?" That comment fell on deaf ears because wrestling to me was cutting weight. Now i am a strong proponent for healthy weight and advise all wrestlers to never cut weight. If its in a wrestlers mind to bring everyone to the ground and pound them, thats a hard mentality to break. But maybe Cung Le will help to break that mental block. I hope the ex wrestlers who train fighters can experience some real shuai chiao guys enough to inspire them to cross train in it and develop a root they never had before to enable a stronger way of what they already have good skill in.

I know very little about Greco Roman wrestling, do they work for the pin or is it all takedown based like Judo?

[Pipefighter]

I know very little about Greco Roman wrestling, do they work for the pin or is it all takedown based like Judo?

Modern judo and traditional Greco have all too much in common, imho. Legs are a quintessential part of life. Blocking them from the sport is just, uhhhhhh.... Kills me.

Greco does work for the pin. There were a number of pins in that video, actually. In greco and freestyle a pin is an instantaneous thing. It isn't like in collegiate or judo where a pin is counted over a period of time displaying control. If you headlock a guy in freestyle/greco and slam is back flat to the mat, he is pinned, match over. So of course you train a lot to fight for a landing that protects your back. At the national level and higher they have multiple ref's because of how quickly it can all happen. Thats why those matches are on elevated platforms, so one set of ref's can be eye level to the mat and identify if a pin has happened off a throw.
Mat technique is much different in freestyle/greco compared to collegiate/folk. In greco/fs you dont have to fight back to standing. You also are really looking to throw the guy on bottom when you are on top, or at least roll him over. But really you wanna pick him up off the ground and slam him. In fs/greco you can lock hands around the waist. Not in folk style. So you try and keep your belly pinned down and in 15 seconds of inactivity the ref will stand you back up. In folk style you are obligated to get back up, but it's illegal for your opponent to lock you around the waist and slam you on your head. So collegiate/folk spends a lot of time learning reversals, mat positioning, riding techniques, escapes, tilt's ( which is where you learn the a number of moves bjj considers sub's).

Takedowns and back points are scored differently in greco/freestyle compared to folk/collegiate. Rolling across your own back in greco/fs will get you pinned also. So a number of throws in judo are differently performed in wrestling. If you throw over your own back in freestyle, you pop through it so your back never touches the mat. Ie, crotch throw, suplex, suicide cradle off front headlock, or even laterally in a gator roll from front headlock. You still pop and arch and don't touch your back. I can post video for those, maybe, if there are questions about throw names.

In short, greco is 30% of what freestyle is. Both work for pins. In greco you cannot use your legs or engage his legs. If you are against a world class athlete you have to be cautious, so you aren't looking for a pin so much as a point advantage, and leave no opening for your opponent.

Oh, and my knowledge of judo is from the judo guys who used to wrestle in high school, and rolling in open grappling with judo guys lately. So i may not know the rules so much. Definitely don't know the jap lingo.

[MightyB]

Modern judo and traditional Greco have all too much in common, imho. Legs are a quintessential part of life. Blocking them from the sport is just, uhhhhhh.... Kills me.

Greco does work for the pin. There were a number of pins in that video, actually. In greco and freestyle a pin is an instantaneous thing. It isn't like in collegiate or judo where a pin is counted over a period of time displaying control. If you headlock a guy in freestyle/greco and slam is back flat to the mat, he is pinned, match over. So of course you train a lot to fight for a landing that protects your back. At the national level and higher they have multiple ref's because of how quickly it can all happen. Thats why those matches are on elevated platforms, so one set of ref's can be eye level to the mat and identify if a pin has happened off a throw.
Mat technique is much different in freestyle/greco compared to collegiate/folk. In greco/fs you dont have to fight back to standing. You also are really looking to throw the guy on bottom when you are on top, or at least roll him over. But really you wanna pick him up off the ground and slam him. In fs/greco you can lock hands around the waist. Not in folk style. So you try and keep your belly pinned down and in 15 seconds of inactivity the ref will stand you back up. In folk style you are obligated to get back up, but it's illegal for your opponent to lock you around the waist and slam you on your head. So collegiate/folk spends a lot of time learning reversals, mat positioning, riding techniques, escapes, tilt's ( which is where you learn the a number of moves bjj considers sub's).

Takedowns and back points are scored differently in greco/freestyle compared to folk/collegiate. Rolling across your own back in greco/fs will get you pinned also. So a number of throws in judo are differently performed in wrestling. If you throw over your own back in freestyle, you pop through it so your back never touches the mat. Ie, crotch throw, suplex, suicide cradle off front headlock, or even laterally in a gator roll from front headlock. You still pop and arch and don't touch your back. I can post video for those, maybe, if there are questions about throw names.

In short, greco is 30% of what freestyle is. Both work for pins. In greco you cannot use your legs or engage his legs. If you are against a world class athlete you have to be cautious, so you aren't looking for a pin so much as a point advantage, and leave no opening for your opponent.

Oh, and my knowledge of judo is from the judo guys who used to wrestle in high school, and rolling in open grappling with judo guys lately. So i may not know the rules so much. Definitely don't know the jap lingo.

Thanks for the details. - I'm really liking what I saw in Greco.

[Pipefighter]

Thanks for the details. - I'm really liking what I saw in Greco.

No sweat. You may find Freestyle wrestling interesting also, since in that you can use leg blocking in throws, and throw from all the angles, and more complete defensive strategy.

I'm glad the M.A. Community is taking an interest in wrestling. Wrestlers have been secretly getting involved in m.a. Since the 70's, but as a wrestling coach you are not allowed to bring any m.a. training into wrestling. I think that wall has come down now.

[Pipefighter]

Here is the same part of the world as the video you posted. This is the freestyle side.
They work a lot more of the shuai chiao foot sweeps there than freestyle wrestlers here in the USA. Most of the greco throws can be completely stopped by leg twisting and leg defense. So seeing a greco throw doesn't do much for me. Pulling off a throw in freestyle is much harder.

[MightyB]

Ronaldo Souza wants to take page out of Ronda Rousey's playbook

He also has a black belt in judo. But despite the spectacular success UFC women's bantamweight champion Ronda Rousey has had using judo as her base, there are few fighters who regularly use judo in the cage.

But it's a weapon for Souza and, he believes, will be for more fighters as time goes on.

"The top judo fighters around the world have regularly trained so hard that they set an example for MMA fighters," Souza said. "Ronda has taken it to another degree. She shows by the way she performs in the Octagon that other fighters can use judo successfully in their strategy.

"She's motivated me to incorporate more judo. It gives me another weapon and she's shown that it can work at a very high level. I've been using more judo techniques and I think I'll be using it more."

[Frost]

Ronda Rousey's teammate, close friend and fellow judoka Marina Shafir (holder of several gold medals in judo at the national level) was knocked out in just 37 seconds by Amanda Bell as part of the LOP Chaos at the Casino 5 card…..

[rett2]

Ronda Rousey's teammate, close friend and fellow judoka Marina Shafir (holder of several gold medals in judo at the national level) was knocked out in just 37 seconds by Amanda Bell as part of the LOP Chaos at the Casino 5 card…..

Was she knocked out through grappling or through stand-up techniques? Only grappling is relevant here.

[Frost]

Was she knocked out through grappling or through stand-up techniques? Only grappling is relevant here.

Not really it is relevant because judo teaches upper body attacks (you can't directly attack the legs) so you don't see level changes and double or single leg attacks, so judoka come in at a level that leaves them open to punches, where as a wrestler with level change and avoid the punches by coming under them, so it goes back to which art needs the least amount of changes to work in mma

[BigPandaBear]

No.

Judo isn't very popular in the US, and Rousey isn't going to change that.

So you're still going to get American MMA fighters who do Wrestling or Bjj.

Let's also not forget that Judo itself is heavily dominated by Olympic Judo, so Olympic rules oftentimes dominates what is taught in a Judo club.

Bjj is a lot more open to new ideas than Judo is, and Ronda is expanding Judo because of Bjj's influence on her. Because of it openness and fluidity, Bjj will always be a step ahead of Judo.

[MightyB]

Bjj will always be a step ahead of Judo.

idk dude... but in my book - Judo's cooler

[Lucas]

Way cooler not to mention judo is better adapted to real life, and develops a tougher fighter.