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That's all the difference in the world.Originally Posted by MightyB
surry brah, judo is great but one successful person (0.01%) doesn't even begin to indicate a shift in entrenched styles. Your hyped up subjective bias is overriding your common sense and depends on conveniently disregarding the difference in self defense BJJ, competitive BJJ and MMA style BJJ/wrestling hybrid.
http://www.mmafighting.com/2013/6/1/...print-mma-news
(. Y .)
And one could say that you're guilty of the same bias (when thinking that people only practice for the Olympics when they do Judo.)
Good find BTW with the audio link.
(. Y .)
I find this annoying with BJJ
Rules 6.4.5 & 6.4.6 SERIOUS FOULS, When an athlete on the ground stands to escape combat and does not return to combat on the ground. and
When an athlete breaks the grip of the opponent pulling guard and does not return to combat on the ground
It's easy to pick apart Judo for it's new rules, but these two destroy the spirit of Judo in BJJ. Basically you have to groundfight with a pu$$y. At least they penalize 6.4.1 When an athlete kneels or sits without having a grip of any kind on the opponent. otherwise it'd be completely ridiculous
I think both sports could be made better simply by on the Judo side, a winner has to win by submission on the ground, on the BJJ side, they have to be able to take you down and keep you there.
Registered User
hard to see judo replacing BJJ when judo is in decline and BJJ still growing strong
http://theselfdefenceexpert.com/why-...pants-by-2020/
but of course you will ignore this, just like you ignored the whole fact your premise is flawed because free style is the take down art of choice not BJJ, and you ignored the fact judo has no leg locks, no shoulder locks, no neck cranks, no guard work etc
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No. I personally prefer Judo over BJJ, I'm actively avoiding subjective bias in favor of common sense and the passive observation of decades of entrenched practice.
So there's a lot of folks practicing no-gi Judo?(when thinking that people only practice for the Olympics when they do Judo.)
Cause I thought that was just called wrestling.
(. Y .)
I didn't ignore you, you're just wrong - Judo Leglocks http://judoinfo.com/leglocks.htm
Judo neck cranks http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm
Open guard all day - half guard all day - butterfly - the "elbow only" thing is misunderstood because there are plenty of locks against the shoulder - your precious kimura and americana being just two labelled under ude-garami, sankaku-garami is omopolata... It's all there bro.
Competition has rules, so does BJJ competition - most of those same moves you're criticizing Judo from prohibiting (leg locks) aren't allowed in IBJJF competition until you're a brown or black belt. Spinal locks or a neck crank is not allowed at any level IBJJF. Look it up yourself http://ibjjf.org/wp-content/uploads/...okIBJJF_v2.pdf 6.3.2
The main reason BJJ is gaining popularity (in America) is a combination of things - but mostly it's bad marketing by the various Judo organizations and a great marketing machine in BJJ (Gracies).
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Good article BTW. Sounds like that guy and me share a lot of the same opinions. Judo when played right is a heck of a rush, but BJJ is easier. Plus, the marketing.
Last edited by MightyB; 02-11-2014 at 08:21 AM.
(. Y .)
Yes (in practice, not competition), because it's fun, and often most clubs allow all techniques and go for submissions (although a clean ippon from a throw still ends the match).
(. Y .)
This thread actually makes me realize how bad a job at marketing Judo has done. There are so many submissions (many of which would be good surprise tactics for BJJ) in Judo.
Somebody even started categorizing them - look at this example http://www.memrise.com/course/24536/...ansetsuwaza/1/
(. Y .)
This style of Judo isn't taught anywhere outside of a BJJ school
So I'm willing to Append my original hypothesis to: True Judo is a better grappling art than BJJ for modern MMA, but unfortunately real Judo is going extinct.
Registered User
Why are you clutching at straws like this? all the evidence points to judo declining and the fact is the art isn’t geared towards no gi striking take downs
BJJ allows some leglocks at various belt levels (even if the reaping rule is silly), and the ever bigger difference is that a large number of BJJ athletes will compete in no gi competitions as well, their clubs actively encourage it and train for it and those comps allow leglocks and neck cranks consequently they drill them and use them in no gi rolling.
And the fact they encourage their guys to compete in no gi, and most have several no gi classes a week means they also train takedowns without the gi, takedowns which include leg attacks, under and overhooks body locks etc. Again when did your judo club last take the gi off and do a dedicated class for no gi takedowns? Mine has never done this,
How many judo clubs in your area have an active no gi team with dedicated nights specifically geared towards training for no gi? My judo club doesn’t, and my coach cant think of one in our region, some guys on their own might compete but no club encourages it or trains specifically for it
The simple fact is most judo clubs concentrate on…well JUDO not training for no gi or MMA, so to make your judo work in MMA you have to make a lot of adjustments and do a lot of additional outside training, why would a fighter do this when he can get that training specifically at a BJJ gym? It simply makes no sense what so ever
I asked at my judo gym last night when they last drilled leglocks or neck cranks (because ive not even seen them mentioned in the 6 months I have been there) no one not even a couple of black belts could remember the last time they did this,
I hit a rolling omoplata last night but let it go because it’s a shoulder lock, both the kimura and the keylock attack the shoulder first, are they actually allowed in competition still?
I honestly don’t know which is why im asking, because I was lead to believe only locks which attack the elbow are allowed, and the whole point of the key lock and kimura is to take the slack out of the shoulder then pop it
The guard is simply not developed in judo these days as it is in BJJ The quick stand ups, limited mat time etc mean people turtle they don’t go flat on their back and work from there for a long time like you see BJJ guys doing. Consequently their guard game isn’t as well developed, of course they have very fast arm bars and chokes, but both rely on the gi mainly to work , and since they don’t work no gi the handles they use on the body are different as are their grips as you well know.
(the fact that historically it did have a good guard game, and leg locks and leg takedowns is immaterial, if you are not training those things week in and week out you wont use them)
And then we come to the BIG problem you still haven’t answered, the fact that BJJ isn’t the grappling art of choice for MMA, it’s the ground art of choice, the standing art of choice is wrestling (freestyle and even Greco roman) and judo will never replace these arts as the takedown art of choice because these arts are:
A) More readily available in the states (taught at school and uni level) than judo
B) Have a bigger pool of coaches to draw from than judo, lots of schools colleges etc have coaches and lots of guys moving into MMA have a wrestling background in the states and thus links to wrestling coaches which their clubs can use
C) Have much better cross over for MMA than judo, they are already no gi arts, already take place at the same distance in terms of clinch and shots, judo because of the gi takes place at a different distance than wrestling or MMA (another adjustment that has to be made) they already teach leg takedowns, body lock throws etc so you only have to adjust to striking, not to striking distance, grips, different attacks etc.
Now I say this as someone who has never don a bjj class in his life, and who now studies and loves judo, but we have to be realistic, arts which teach no gi takedowns will always have an advantage in that realm over those which rely mainly on a gi, and those which allow unlimited time on the ground and restrict fewer submissions will always have an advantage over arts which limit both time and submissions
And any sane person looking to train for a no gi environment where subs are not limited will gravitate towards no gi submission heavy arts, this has always been the way and will continue to be the way
(. Y .)
I think it's a regional/cultural difference. And this could be a Michigan thing, but I've trained with three clubs - our clubs were in decline probably well before the UK, so our clubs had to adapt early to keep students. So to answer your questions, we have newaza only tournaments, cross trained techniques (primarily Sambo because some teams did compete Sambo), and have a lot of crossover competitors that will do no-gi grappling tournaments but there's also a strong wrestling culture here, so most students come in with a wrestling background.
(. Y .)
And now a lovely vision of what Judo looks like in MMA
(. Y .)
you can kimura and keylock - for whatever reason, they will classify that as an elbow attack. The rolling omoplata (sankaku garami) varies by competition. Technically it isn't considered a banned technique. Here's the last of the more famous matches it was used in 2007. It's a variation on the omoplata, but it's quite clearly a rolling leg attack on arm targeting the shoulder. He used it as a pin. Start at the 4:30 min mark.I hit a rolling omoplata last night but let it go because it’s a shoulder lock, both the kimura and the keylock attack the shoulder first, are they actually allowed in competition still?
I honestly don’t know which is why im asking, because I was lead to believe only locks which attack the elbow are allowed, and the whole point of the key lock and kimura is to take the slack out of the shoulder then pop it
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Yes, we know that this entire thread is just click bait based on an over hyped outlier. I applaud your trolling tactics, but it is painfully obvious that you aren't actually arguing that "Judo is going to overtake BJJ as the grappling art of choice . . ." rather "Judo should be the grappling art of choice". In that case, unfortunately, the click through rate on your thread would be like 12 and it would fall off the front page.
(. Y .)
and you agree. It should be... Rhonda keeps winning and you're going to see more and more -
polish off your black belt if you have 'em because people want to know it. A friend of mine from an old defunct Judo club just got asked come out of "retirement" and train guys at a MMA school in Saginaw
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