Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[LFJ]

I am making no assumptions.

Wasn't referring to you.

Your definition is overly narrow. Yes it is a developmental drill or exercise to learn and practice using the wing chun tools. If a person has trouble using their wing chun tools it is not the fault of their partner.

That's fine. We apparently have different thinking as to the purpose of chi-sau and its place in the training of our system.

I do not understand this stuff about thinking being different.

That's kind of my point.

Chi sau is an exercise to practice certain wing chun skills so it is not surprising that wing chun people would do it when they get together. Sparring is another exercise to practice wing chun skills. People should do both.

I agree, but I'm afraid many people get too attached to playing chi-sau and neglect a more realistic fight training. I would like to see free sparring be given the importance chi-sau enjoys and become the focal point of these kinds of exchanges.

[KPM]

LJF said:
KPM goes off on how poorly Kevin performed, then acknowledges just in passing that it's highly possible he wasn't actually performing at all. So, it appears some of you are attaching to the most enticing assumption against Kevin after being butthurt by his arrogance and criticism. If we're being honest, the whole exchange, whatever the setting, was unimpressive on both sides.

Ok. The following point has been made MULTIPLE times on this thread, but I'll say it again for those that seem a little slow.

1. Kevin and Obasi exchanged words...whatever they may be...on the internet. They agreed to meet.
2. Obasi had a cameraman in attendance filming the whole thing.
3. It became obvious within about 5 seconds that Obasi had something in mind other than a friendly roll in Chi Sao.
4. Kevin did not perform well at all other than possibly maintaining some decent structure, and was actually hit (even though lightly) on several occasions.
5. Kevin has, for several years now, extolled the virtues of PBVT and how much superior it is to other Wing Chun, often in a somewhat rude and insulting manner to other lineages.
6. Those of us here that are very familiar with #5 certainly expected to see more from Kevin considering #1, 2, & 3 above.

Butthurt? No. Disappointed? Yes! I would have liked to see Kevin control Obasi like it was no big deal and "school" him like Emin Boztepe did! I would have liked to see some of the things he was talking about from PBVT demonstrated against a resisting partner rather than in a drill like we see in so many of the PBVT videos. I would have liked to see Kevin proven right about everything he has written about PBVT. A lot of what he has written (when he isn't being a total axx) makes sense and is pretty good. I like what I've seen of PB on video. But it didn't happen. Did Kevin CHOOSE not to perform? Maybe! But that's irrelavant to the point. The point is that he DIDN'T! Whether because he couldn't or chose not to is unclear. But he DIDN'T! And now LFJ has spent pages trying to defend his poor performance for some reason and has chosen to ignore these simple points. But the rest of us are "idiots" for seeing what should be obvious. Go figure!

[LFJ]

Welcome back to the thread KP!

Actually, I haven't directly "defended" his poor performance based on what he did. I agree it is not what you'd expect or hope to see if this were a real challenge. I think there were many things he could have done better nonetheless, and I mentioned those things early in the thread. I don't think there is a defense for either of them. I'm simply encouraging people to not make their happy assumptions based on no more information than hearsay of some sort of "argument" and 39 seconds of video.

[Grumblegeezer]

I'm simply encouraging people to not make their happy assumptions based on no more information than hearsay of some sort of "argument" and 39 seconds of video.

That's fair enough. Now let's bury this thread.

BTW did you check out the new PB-WSLVT sparring clip posted by BPWT. It's far more interesting than this.

[wtxs]

Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.

One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.

Now that you had able to put this whole mess in perspective ... hows your winter weather? We hit 80's here yesterday.

[slick69]

Now that you had able to put this whole mess in perspective

This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqf...e_gdata_player

Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.

[Frost]

This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqf...e_gdata_player

Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.

no really, im shocked....well im shocked someone actually went and called him out on it...wonder what all those pro boxers kevin man handles felt about the outcome

[JPinAZ]

This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqf...e_gdata_player

Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.

Per shawns own admission, he went to see Kev because kev said that shawn has no root, balance, whatever. Well, all he did was prove Kev right in the idiotic 'challenge match' clip..

Now, can someone lock this thread?

[slick69]

Per shawns own admission, he went to see Kev because kev said that shawn has no root, balance, whatever. Well, all he did was prove Kev right in the idiotic 'challenge match' clip..

Now, can someone lock this thread?

And Kev proved his fighting skills belong to the forums...

[tc101]

Per shawns own admission, he went to see Kev because kev said that shawn has no root, balance, whatever. Well, all he did was prove Kev right in the idiotic 'challenge match' clip..

No I do not think the lesson here was Kev was right.

Now, can someone lock this thread?

Why? Can you just not read things that do not interest you?

[JPinAZ]

No I do not think the lesson here was Kev was right.

That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Regardless if shawn was able to push/pull kev around, IMO kev's assement of his WC root/balance were solidified on the clip, and that's all I was talking about.
Now, if you think Shawn's holding, leaning and shoving to the point his feet came off the ground was demonstrative of good wing chun root and balance, I won't argue - clearly our definitions of those things are very different.

Why? Can you just not read things that do not interest you?

I just figured the horse was beaten to death already about 10 pages back. It's actually pretty entertaining the attention this joke of a so-called 'challenge match' has been given. Heck, even I'm guilty of it. No sweat off my back if it gets another 20 pages.

[tc101]

That's ok, everyone is entitled to their opinion. Regardless if shawn was able to push/pull kev around, IMO kev's assement of his WC root/balance were solidified on the clip, and that's all I was talking about.
Now, if you think Shawn's holding, leaning and shoving to the point his feet came off the ground was demonstrative of good wing chun root and balance, I won't argue - clearly our definitions of those things are very different.

I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).

Root or balance or structure or whatever are not simply good in and of themselves but are only as good in how they increase your performance ability. They are just a part of what goes into the mix that makes up your performance. Skilled people can play with the variables, like structure or form or balance, and still perform at a high level. Like the"drunken" masters.

I just figured the horse was beaten to death already about 10 pages back. It's actually pretty entertaining the attention this joke of a so-called 'challenge match' has been given. Heck, even I'm guilty of it. No sweat off my back if it gets another 20 pages.

Here's where we differ, I do not think this challenge match was a joke. I think it provides food for thought.

[JPinAZ]

I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).

Obasi also thinks entering with chain punches is good wing chun (per one of his 'workshop' videos). So, while I appreciate your efforts to clarify things and defend him, I'm find it difficult buying that he was 'purposely' doing 'bad' wing chun in this clip by giving up root, structure and posture to prove a point. At least he's never stated as such anywhere AFAIA.
FWIW, I've seen several of his demo videos where he has the exact same issues, which more than likely is what caused Kev to share the same view that sparked this whole silly thing.

Here's where we differ, I do not think this challenge match was a joke. I think it provides food for thought.

Opinions vary, but fair enough.
My final thought and then I'm bowing out of this conversation: the clip was orginally labeled 'chi sau challenge match', I find that more than a bit oxymoronic don't you?

[KPM]

I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).

.

Hey tc101! We actually agree on something!

[KPM]

This is an explanation for what happened from Obasi.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOqf...e_gdata_player

Basically Kevin was badmouthing as per usual and Obasi went to test him out.

Thank you slick and Mr. Obasi for providing clarification. Obasi backed up everything so far except the one "assumption" that we had wrong. Kevin's guy was the cameraman and not Obasi's! So now, wouldn't one think.....if you were bringing your OWN camera and cameraman you would be planning on actually performing something for the camera? So, why would Kevin CHOOSE not to actually show some PBVT when he even brought his own cameraman to film things? Seems odd to me.