Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[Sihing73]

Thank you slick and Mr. Obasi for providing clarification. Obasi backed up everything so far except the one "assumption" that we had wrong. Kevin's guy was the cameraman and not Obasi's! So now, wouldn't one think.....if you were bringing your OWN camera and cameraman you would be planning on actually performing something for the camera? So, why would Kevin CHOOSE not to actually show some PBVT when he even brought his own cameraman to film things? Seems odd to me.

Hmm, well Leung Ting used a guy wearing a T-Shirt with "I am Wrong" on it in some of his videos.
This was to show the wrong or incorrect way of doing things.
Maybe that is what Kev had in mind with this video................to show the wrong way to do things. Maybe he just did not get the T-shirt printed in time.

Seriously, Kev is taking a lot of crap for the video and it may be somewhat deserved based on past comments from him, but I do wonder why, if his guy shot the video, it even got posted at all.

I am thinking that if I called someone out and they showed up and handed me my butt and it was me or mine who shot the video it would go into a Black Hole somewhere and not be posted so everyone could point out my shortcomings. .................. Then again, I would hope I am smart enough not to alienate almost everyone by pointing out how my way is soooo superior and how no one else got it right.

[LFJ]

I think the lesson, as I understood from Obasi's explanation video, was not that Obasi was trying to show good model wing chun but was trying to show Kev despite his thinking and opinions on what good wing chun is that he could not deal with what he considers "bad" wing chun and that Obasi was emphasizing the "badness" to make a point (that seems lost on some).

Emphasizing the badness? What? He never said that. Kevin criticized him for having no root or structure, so he went to challenge Kevin's root and structure. That's what it says in the video description and that's what he says in his video explanation.

He said he was pushing and pulling in order to test Kevin's root and structure. Never did he say he was "emphasizing the 'badness'". In fact, he said "if my structure's garbage I shouldn't be able to pull you from one side of the room to another. For me, that's straight mastery".

So he obviously thinks highly of his performance and what he was demonstrating was his superior root and structure. What you and KPM are STILL doing is making the assumptions you want to make, even when the information is given to you straight from the horse's mouth.

[LFJ]

Kevin's guy was the cameraman and not Obasi's! So now, wouldn't one think.....if you were bringing your OWN camera and cameraman you would be planning on actually performing something for the camera? So, why would Kevin CHOOSE not to actually show some PBVT when he even brought his own cameraman to film things? Seems odd to me.

Very odd indeed. If it were Kevin's video, how would it end up on Obasi's youtube channel with the title "Chi Sao Challenge Match"? And why is Kevin's guy taking direction to cut from Obasi? Obasi's in their gym, the camera rolls whether he likes it or not. There's only 39 seconds there. I'm sure they got together and exchanged more ideas for longer than just that 39 seconds. The before and after, whatever it is, was not shown.

[BPWT..]

Root or balance or structure or whatever are not simply good in and of themselves but are only as good in how they increase your performance ability. They are just a part of what goes into the mix that makes up your performance.

As tc101 points out, having good balance and structure are only part of the mix - and what's the point of having them if you can't use them; and what's the point of someone (Kevin) saying that Obasi doesn't have good structure and balance, if he (Kevin) can't exploit the fact?

Kevin wasn't able to exploit Obasi or stop Obasi from dominating him during the exchange.

LFJ has maintained that Kevin didn't fail to do anything because he wasn't trying to do anything against Obasi:

He [Kevin] didn't even make a failed attempt.

But later claims that Kevin was able to make an attempt and to do so with some success as he attack with a palm strike:

...At :21 they came together. Kevin was on the inside, then switched to the outside. When their roll came back down he swam back under and did a palm strike from the inside that caused Obasi to jerk his head back...

You can't have it both ways. Either he was trying against Obasi or he wasn't. IMO, Kevin was trying but not doing very well. Whether Kevin has good structure and/or Obasi has bad structure is beyond the point - as Kevin couldn't take advantage of either case, and got tossed around.

As for whatever happened before or after the video was rolling (regardless of who shot it) well we don't know - and Kevin hasn't posted to explain the situation. All Kevin has done on this thread is post to commend Obasi and say that Obasi took him to his limits.

More odd, in my mind, is that Kevin hasn't explained his take on what he was doing or not doing; nor has he addressed the claims that PB is unhappy with Kevin's ability and that Kevin had only trained with PB twice in seven years (as Slick posted regarding the former, and Obasi wrote on his Facebook wall regarding the latter).

If nothing else, I would have expected someone from the PBVT line to have clarified these points if they are in error. Of course, if they are true it would a) go some way to explaining Kevin's reluctance to post on the forum now, and b) go some way to explaining the poor performance in the video clip.

Whatever :

[LFJ]

You can't have it both ways. Either he was trying against Obasi or he wasn't.

Since the only thing he did offensively was pulled, I don't really see that he was trying very hard. Obasi at least made light contact even though it meant nothing. If he could hit Obasi in the jaw with a well-structured palm strike, he could've easily moved in with it and waved him out to show his structure and root. But he didn't... so I don't really know what Kevin was doing in the exchange and he ain't talkin'.

That's the most disappointing thing with this clip. Not what happened or didn't happen, but that Kevin isn't willing to discuss it, even if he was bested. He was very vocal on this forum but seems like he hasn't been back since this incident. Hopefully bruised ego hasn't kept him away because he does add value to the forum with much of his contributions nonetheless.

[tc101]

Emphasizing the badness? What? He never said that. Kevin criticized him for having no root or structure, so he went to challenge Kevin's root and structure. That's what it says in the video description and that's what he says in his video explanation.

He said he was pushing and pulling in order to test Kevin's root and structure. Never did he say he was "emphasizing the 'badness'". In fact, he said "if my structure's garbage I shouldn't be able to pull you from one side of the room to another. For me, that's straight mastery".

So he obviously thinks highly of his performance and what he was demonstrating was his superior root and structure. What you and KPM are STILL doing is making the assumptions you want to make, even when the information is given to you straight from the horse's mouth.

Yes he never explicitly said it but it is clear that is what he is doing. Kevin says Obassi has poor root etc and Obassi exaggerates it to toss Kevin around. Obassi's comment is if I have no root or structure then how can I toss Kevin around since you need root and structure to do that. He shows that his root and structure is superior since he can use his to dominate his partners.

If Kev's chi sau is an entirely different animal than everyone else's as you maintain - did not WSL chi sau come from YM? Was not WSL able to chi sau with people besides his students? - then why would he ever agree to do chi sau with any nonPBVT person? Would he not be "defenseless" and whole thing pointless since he has some different idea?

[KPM]

I am thinking that if I called someone out and they showed up and handed me my butt and it was me or mine who shot the video it would go into a Black Hole somewhere and not be posted so everyone could point out my shortcomings. .................. Then again, I would hope I am smart enough not to alienate almost everyone by pointing out how my way is soooo superior and how no one else got it right.

I'd have to go back and watch Obasi's youtube vid again, but I think I understood him to say that Kevin's guy did the filming, and that Kevin also brought a camera, implying maybe that Kevin's guy did the filming but using Obasi's camera.

[LFJ]

why would he ever agree to do chi sau with any nonPBVT person? Would he not be "defenseless" and whole thing pointless since he has some different idea?

Good question. Strange that he would willingly participate in a "Chi Sau Challenge Match" when he maintains that chi-sau is not a fight or any sort of competition. Don't know why he doesn't respond himself. And yes, the whole thing was pointless. Chi-sau between people with such vastly different ideas about what they're doing generally turn into a mess like this.

I think much more would come from chi-sauing within your lineage to develop the skills of your system, then going to test it in free sparring with others. The chi-sau culture is a sham. It can't be called fight training if chi-sau is as realistic as you get. Free sparring is the closest most people will get to free fighting. It should be given way more emphasis.

[tc101]

Good question. Strange that he would willingly participate in a "Chi Sau Challenge Match" when he maintains that chi-sau is not a fight or any sort of competition. Don't know why he doesn't respond himself. And yes, the whole thing was pointless. Chi-sau between people with such vastly different ideas about what they're doing generally turn into a mess like this.

I think much more would come from chi-sauing within your lineage to develop the skills of your system, then going to test it in free sparring with others. The chi-sau culture is a sham. It can't be called fight training if chi-sau is as realistic as you get. Free sparring is the closest most people will get to free fighting. It should be given way more emphasis.

There are various ways and different levels of tests of a persons wing chun skills. Chi sau is a LIMITED exercise but an exercise that uses our wing chun skills, so our ability doing the drill is some indication of our skill level using our wing chun. If you cannot do something in chi sau then certainly you will not be able to do it in sparring or fighting.

The problem with restricting chi sau to your own little group is that often you become accustomed to only seeing and dealing with the same very limited things and so your thinking to use your word becomes distorted. For example if I practice limp noodle chi sau it is easy when my partner is also doing limp noodle chi sau and giving me limp noodle energy. I may then begin to think that limp noodle is THE answer. Of course should I meet some nonnoodler who dominates me I can always excuse my performance by saying well we just have different ideas of chi sau and if we had only fought the real power of the noodle would become clear.

[Sihing73]

Morning,

My take on Chi Sau has always been that it is a training drill for sensitivity, not for fighting.
To me, Chi Sau is how one trains to deal with the energy presented by the opponent.
Much like Yip Man stated; "Your opponent tells you how to defeat him"
Again, to me, the result of Chi Sau is to permit you to engage the opponent with no need for conscious thought. Kind of like the idea of "Mushin".
You engage and simply react to what you are presented with and do not need to think about all that is going on.
Of course this is not some magic formula for success nor is it something which happens overnight. Also, it is not the end all be all of Wing Chun, as many seem to think. It is a piece of the pie which, when the attributes developed through this drill are incorporated with other parts of the system such as sparring etc, can make for a powerful tool.
If you work the dummy then you will get feedback which will tell you about your stance, for example. This feedback can also, imo, carry over to improving your Chi Sau as you must learn to flow around the dummy and the contact points will help to refine your energy, both in exerting and receiving.

When I was under WT we trained in sections of Chi Sau.
Each section, imo, taught one about dealing with a specific type of energy.
Once all the sections were learned then you free flowed and the goal was to simply react and not to have any set pattern.
Again this was my experience as to my training.

To me, it should not matter what the opponent does as "Chi Sau", since I train to accept and read the energy presented it really should not matter if my opponent/partner does things differently. I should be able to react to what is presented. Now keeping in mind the purpose of the drill this does not mean that I should automatically "WIN". It means that I should be able to read and accept what is given to me. Some things will get through and I may be hit. But, this simply means that I need to work on improving my sensitivity to whatever energy was presented to me and got through. Since Chi Sau is a training drill it should be a learning experience and an opportunity to refine ones listening skills not a competition or some sort of fight.

FWIW, I have done Chi Sau with others from various lineages and in some cases learned from the experience. I have run into those who will not Chi Sau outside of their lineage and while I respect their opinion, I feel they do themselves and students a disservice by ignoring the chance to be exposed to something outside of their comfort zone. I have also done Chi Sau with some outside the WC system. Of course this could not be considered "Chi Sau" per se but I did try to remain within the parameters. For example I had a Tai Chi guy who wanted to compare his Push Hands to Chi Sau. I found that he left his center open and I was able to strike him. However, I did find the way he parried and tried to guide my energy interesting. This was not some sort of competition but an exchange which we hopefully each brought something from, too bad we cannot do this within our system all of the time.

Bottom line is that just because someone does something differently it should not prohibit an exchange. The key to me is to be open to learning something, not competing and perhaps most importantly not trying to play the others game. Try to apply what you train in the unfamiliar environment presented by something different.

[LFJ]

The problem with restricting chi sau to your own little group is that often you become accustomed to only seeing and dealing with the same very limited things and so your thinking to use your word becomes distorted.

Maybe if chi-sau is as realistic as your training ever gets. I don't use chi-sau as some sort of equivalent or replacement for live sparring. Not only is what we do in chi-sau apparently different, but in fact the entire purpose of it if you think it limits experience, or that experiences like this exchange are at all fruitful.

[LFJ]

I have run into those who will not Chi Sau outside of their lineage and while I respect their opinion, I feel they do themselves and students a disservice by ignoring the chance to be exposed to something outside of their comfort zone.

Simple solution. Actually spar. Spar with many people from many styles. The ultimate goal of training the entire system is to develop fighting skill. So why should free sparring not be the go-to test of skill between fighters? Being stuck on such an artificial level at chi-sau is just lying to oneself. For me, chi-sau is only an exchange of force to develop structure, speed, power, and reflexes. If I'm going to test my skill against another fighter I won't do a developmental drill with them, especially if they train a completely different system. I will do the closest thing we can do to fighting, which is sparring.

[slick69]

Simple solution. Actually spar. Spar with many people from many styles. The ultimate goal of training the entire system is to develop fighting skill. So why should free sparring not be the go-to test of skill between fighters? Being stuck on such an artificial level at chi-sau is just lying to oneself. For me, chi-sau is only an exchange of force to develop structure, speed, power, and reflexes. If I'm going to test my skill against another fighter I won't do a developmental drill with them, especially if they train a completely different system. I will do the closest thing we can do to fighting, which is sparring.

This is just an excuse not to chi-sau. Chi-sau is the way to test ones ability in Wing Chun pure and simple. In my experience whenever people refuse to chi-sau it's to hide there limited ability in Wing Chun, then when they spar they look like headless chickens...

[LFJ]

This is just an excuse not to chi-sau. Chi-sau is the way to test ones ability in Wing Chun pure and simple. In my experience whenever people refuse to chi-sau it's to hide there limited ability in Wing Chun, then when they spar they look like headless chickens...

Haha, okay. Make an excuse to not chi-sau and just fight, because chi-sau is a more realistic test of skill?

I'd think those who don't spar and just chi-sau are the ones hiding from something. How is doing something far closer to realistic free fighting a way to hide limited ability? What is your ultimate training goal? Not to fight? If chi-sau is the highest test of skill in your Wing Chun, then that shows what your ultimate training goal is. You won't even be facing people outside of the style. You're lying to yourself.

[KPM]

There are various ways and different levels of tests of a persons wing chun skills. Chi sau is a LIMITED exercise but an exercise that uses our wing chun skills, so our ability doing the drill is some indication of our skill level using our wing chun. If you cannot do something in chi sau then certainly you will not be able to do it in sparring or fighting.

The problem with restricting chi sau to your own little group is that often you become accustomed to only seeing and dealing with the same very limited things and so your thinking to use your word becomes distorted. For example if I practice limp noodle chi sau it is easy when my partner is also doing limp noodle chi sau and giving me limp noodle energy. I may then begin to think that limp noodle is THE answer. Of course should I meet some nonnoodler who dominates me I can always excuse my performance by saying well we just have different ideas of chi sau and if we had only fought the real power of the noodle would become clear.

Wow tc101! One again I find myself agreeing with you!