Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[LFJ]

LFJ, I admire your attempts to point out what is obvious to some of us here, but I would just give up. They dont want to hear it. They want this to be a true representation of Kevin's (and PB) Ving Tsun (although I suspect they must secretly realise it isn't).
They believe they are watching a valid "challenge match" even though one if the actual participants clearly doesnt think so.
They criticise Kevin's "performance" even though he has chosen not to "perform".
They believe what Obasi is doing with this double arm wrestling idea of "chi sao" is relevant to actual fighting and believe this is a fair representation of what would happen in a real fight. Leave them.
I have learned it is a complete waste of time trying to discuss VT with these guys. They will see what they want to see.

Apparently so. When it comes to defending wild b!tch slaps, arm struggling and shoving just so they don't have to give Kevin any points, I think any honest and fruitful discussion is over. If it had been two strangers in the video no one would've said any job had been gotten done.

[leeshing]

I think that structure is of course important but we have to combine that with control and offensive actions regardless of the quality of the Chi Sau in this clip the important message here is can you defend and attack whilst being confronted with an unorthodox opponent structure is only good if you can answer yes to that if not it wouldnt matter once the punches and kicks rain in we have to be honest with ourselves and our training methods

[KPM]

Apparently so. When it comes to defending wild b!tch slaps, arm struggling and shoving just so they don't have to give Kevin any points, I think any honest and fruitful discussion is over. If it had been two strangers in the video no one would've said any job had been gotten done.

OK. My last comment. T Ray you are a little late to the party. The whole idea of "pointless" goes in both directions.

LFJ, the point was made long ago that Kevin and Obasi had words on the internet, agreed to meet to settle something, Kevin knew that Obasi had a cameraman filming for him, and it quickly became apparent that Obasi had something more than a friendly roll in mind. How could Kevin NOT know that Obasi was going to put the pressure on him? Yet we see nothing from Kevin other than some "good structure." This is the same Kevin that has told us all how superior his PBVT is to everyone else's Wing Chun, how no one learned the "correct" Wing Chun from WSL except PB, and how we are all doing some kind of misunderstood and deficient version of Wing Chun. Here he had a chance to show what he has been talking about.....and he didn't. Sure, if this had been two strangers we wouldn't have been having this conversation. But it wasn't. And like I said before, I'm pretty sure that if this had been Obasi man-handling a Leung Ting guy in a very similar clip that BWVT posted, the PBVT guys would have been out in force on that thread! LFJ, did you ever stop and wonder why you are the only one defending Kevin here? Where are his PBVT compadres? They have certainly never hesitated to take up the PBVT banner in the past!

If Kevin can't cope with a bigger stronger man doing a little "arm grabbing" in Chi Sao, how in the heck is he going to deal with the same man shooting in for a takedown or bum-rushing him to a bear-hug? If Kevin can't use his superior PBVT knowledge to angle, redirect, and control Obasi's momentum and arms and simply shut him down in Chi Sao, how is he going to stop the same man charging in on him intent to take him out in a real exchange? Chi Sao is indeed a training tool only. But it should be for training real-world skills. Maybe Kevin simply chose not to perform or do anything. That seems like a strong possibility to me! All we have been saying is that after all his hype and trash talking, Kevin did not live up to his own legend in that particular clip! Yet you continue to want to defend him when neither he or his PBVT cronies feel the need to do so.

T Ray says you have attempted to point out what is obvious to many here, but we have refused to listen. Hmmmm. Seems to me he has that backwards.

[LFJ]

LFJ, the point was made long ago that Kevin and Obasi had words on the internet, agreed to meet to settle something,

Had words about what? No one seems to know exactly, but everyone seems to assume they agreed to settle whatever it was with a chi-sau "challenge match", completely ignoring how illogical it would be since Kevin constantly stresses that chi-sau is not a fight or competition- not to mention him stopping at the end to say "this isn't our chi-sau", suggesting that they were somehow exchanging ideas about the drill, as if this were Obasi's round on offense. Again, a lot can be assumed.

How could Kevin NOT know that Obasi was going to put the pressure on him? Yet we see nothing from Kevin other than some "good structure."

As said previously, you're assuming a lot about what you don't know- namely what came before and after those 40 seconds. My whole involvement in this thread has been to discourage all the assumption and jumping to conclusions, as attractive as that is to all of you who have had your lineages insulted by Kevin and would love some heavy dirt on him.

Here he had a chance to show what he has been talking about.....and he didn't.

For reasons you know not, yet you're very willing to make the assumption most enticing to you.

LFJ, did you ever stop and wonder why you are the only one defending Kevin here? Where are his PBVT compadres? They have certainly never hesitated to take up the PBVT banner in the past!

Like Graham? He was called out and gave his reason for not participating in the thread. I don't need to stop and wonder.

Maybe Kevin simply chose not to perform or do anything. That seems like a strong possibility to me!

Then what's with all the assumption and criticism if what you'd like to think you're seeing is not even certain?

[Frost]

Everyone knows what your whole involvement is about LFJ...its quite funny really...sad but funny

[LFJ]

Idiots? Really? You've run out of anything else to keep this pointless thread going so you resort to name calling?

I "resorted" to name calling because I honestly don't know how you two were missing the point I put very clearly, unless you and Wayfaring were purposely being stubborn, in which case I should use another name.

I pointed out that he was getting the job done against Kevin regardless of how ugly it looked.

One of the landed "strikes" you pointed out specifically was that arched back, overreaching b!tch tap. That was really the only thing that landed cleanly besides maybe the awkward hiccuping knee things. If that's "getting the job done" to you, you haven't held much serious employment.

[GlennR]

One of the landed "strikes" you pointed out specifically was that arched back, overreaching b!tch tap. That was really the only thing that landed cleanly besides maybe the awkward hiccuping knee things. If that's "getting the job done" to you, you haven't held much serious employment.



Wow, imagine what someone would have done to Kev then if they actually knew what they were doing

[LFJ]

Wow, imagine what someone would have done to Kev then if they actually knew what they were doing

Anyone can get caught by anyone. Obasi said he likes Kevin and to imagine if he didn't like him. Well, it's hard to imagine and imagining things is often what gets you knocked out. As Mike Tyson said; "Everyone has a plan — until they get punched in the face."

[KPM]

Anyone can get caught by anyone. Obasi said he likes Kevin and to imagine if he didn't like him. Well, it's hard to imagine and imagining things is often what gets you knocked out. As Mike Tyson said; "Everyone has a plan — until they get punched in the face."

Yeah! Maybe that explains Kevin's performance! He had a plan, until that first knee smacked him in the chest!

But you go on trying to apologize it all away. You're only making it worse at this point.

[tc101]

Wow, imagine what someone would have done to Kev then if they actually knew what they were doing

Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.

One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.

[Frost]

Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.

One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.

actually when you say many you should really say one person as only one guy has really gone to town on seans chi sao and that guy is desperate to defend another wsl lineage person he is becoming a laughing stock here....Glenn was being sarcastic and responding to said person, most here have said good things about sean

[GlennR]

Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them? If not, then why would they be considered errors or poor wing chun? If a person can't take advantage of these things significant errors, what does that say? What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.

One a side note, this was chi sau between two individuals and only that. No generalities about their respective lineages or training approach is valid.

And i think you need to note the use of sarcasm, it was used liberally in my post that you replied to. FWIW, i had no problem with what either of the guys did......... full power to them to meet up and video it in the 1st place, as i said in another post, catch up and do it all again. The pair of them will only learn from it.

Oh, nice to see you back Dom

[LFJ]

Many here have criticized Obassi's chi sau as having poor form, poor balance, and so forth, so aren't all these weaknesses and problems really openings or opportunities for someone with the skills to take advantage of them?

Yes, but it depends on what sort of agreement was made prior to those 40 seconds we saw. So far people are only making assumptions and jumping to conclusions without sufficient information.

What does it matter how your partner plays their chi sau, so what if what they do is not your chi sau or if they have a different concept or idea? Regardless of how they play it, the real question is do I have the skills to deal with what they are doing and take advantage of or use their mistakes against them.

In my opinion, as I've expressed, chi-sau is a developmental drill designed to develop skills specific to your lineage in the particular way it is understood in your lineage. If you go outside of that you lose the point and value of the drill. It just becomes a sort of artificial competition, fight, or game which gives people a false impression of fighting ability.

Sure, chi-sau is meant to be a stepping stone to translate your training into fighting ability, but if you want to test and compete against other styles it should be done in free sparring. I personally look upon other WCK lineages as other styles, because their thinking can be so vastly different to my own. So I chi-sau within my lineage to develop skills used to face other styles in free fighting.

I will never understand why Wing Chun people get together and just want to play their favorite game of chi-sau rather than spar. Having fun and being good in chi-sau may be their ultimate training goal, but it's not mine.

[LFJ]

that guy is desperate to defend another wsl lineage person

Actually I have no problem openly criticizing others in the WSL lineage with whom I disagree. This is a discussion forum and I've done plenty of that here as well with a couple 1st gen. students. Just being honest about where I agree and disagree and why. I think many of you who are complimenting Obasi's work here are not being 100% honest. If this were two strangers in the video no one would have a good word to say about either of them. KPM goes off on how poorly Kevin performed, then acknowledges just in passing that it's highly possible he wasn't actually performing at all. So, it appears some of you are attaching to the most enticing assumption against Kevin after being butthurt by his arrogance and criticism. If we're being honest, the whole exchange, whatever the setting, was unimpressive on both sides.

[tc101]

Yes, but it depends on what sort of agreement was made prior to those 40 seconds we saw. So far people are only making assumptions and jumping to conclusions without sufficient information.

I am making no assumptions. What I see are two people trying to use their wing chun tools against their partner - and that is what gor sau or free form chi sau is.

In my opinion, as I've expressed, chi-sau is a developmental drill designed to develop skills specific to your lineage in the particular way it is understood in your lineage. If you go outside of that you lose the point and value of the drill. It just becomes a sort of artificial competition, fight, or game which gives people a false impression of fighting ability.

Your definition is overly narrow. Yes it is a developmental drill or exercise to learn and practice using the wing chun tools. If a person has trouble using their wing chun tools it is not the fault of their partner. WSL as well as most notable wing chun teachers were not limited to only doing chi sau or gor sau with people in their own lineage.

Sure, chi-sau is meant to be a stepping stone to translate your training into fighting ability, but if you want to test and compete against other styles it should be done in free sparring. I personally look upon other WCK lineages as other styles, because their thinking can be so vastly different to my own. So I chi-sau within my lineage to develop skills used to face other styles in free fighting.

I will never understand why Wing Chun people get together and just want to play their favorite game of chi-sau rather than spar. Having fun and being good in chi-sau may be their ultimate training goal, but it's not mine.

I do not understand this stuff about thinking being different. Chi sau is an exercise to practice certain wing chun skills so it is not surprising that wing chun people would do it when they get together. Sparring is another exercise to practice wing chun skills. People should do both.