Some people never learn.Originally Posted by Graham H
I guess we all learnt that you're tough talking and BS only works on forums not outside the internet
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Some people never learn.
I guess we all learnt that you're tough talking and BS only works on forums not outside the internet
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Got it. Nothing to do with the clip. Thanks for the clarification.
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That's exactly what we've been saying. Kevin wasn't able to show anything he talks about online. So sure, not PBVT
Of course, I think you're trying to suggest that Kevin, quite consciously, switched off all those years of training and reflexes and just did nothing except retreat backwards and chase hands in order to let Obasi do his thing... with a camera rolling, after having argued with Obasi online, and with the talk of challenges in the air.
A bit of a stretch. Unless PBVT is not about reflex and you guys think out your responses to attacks in the heat of the moment. The plot thickens...
Last edited by BPWT.; 02-02-2014 at 01:15 PM.
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Just to add, T_Ray; while Kevin posts to say that Obasi "pushed him to his limits" and commends Obasi for it, you're suggesting that Kevin was "not even attempting to compete."
So... pushed to his limits while at the same time not really trying and somehow deliberately turning off reflex and method gained in his years of training with PB.
The real thing being "pushed to the limit" guys, is logic.
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The clip has title as "Chi Sao 'Challenge' Match". We have to agree that this is a "challenge".
When you play sticky hands with a challenger, what do you expect out of it? That challenger is not your training partner. Do you want to:
- teach that person?
- learn from that person?
- beat that person up?
- let that person to beat you up?
Also I don't agree with the "ego" issue. If you challenge someone and your goal is to win, it has nothing to do with "ego". How will you be able to prevent people from knocking on your door everyday and asking for challenge. In the TCMA world, there is only one solution and that is to hurt the challenger so bad that scare all the other challengers away.
If you don't want to take that violent route, you can always take some more civilized route. Some TCMA masters told me how they had handled personal challenge. Instead of doing sparring (or sticky hands),
- The praying mantis master Brendan Lai told the other guy, "I'm going to punch you just once. If you can block my punch, you win, otherwise, you lose."
- The SC master David C. K. Lin told the other guy, "I'm going to take you down 3 times. If you can stand on you feet for more than 3 seconds on any of those 3 tries, you win, otherwise, you lose."
Both challenge methods are much easier to decide winner and loser without having to get into serious violence.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 02-02-2014 at 04:36 PM.
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More opinion -> more argument
Less opinion -> less argument
No opinion -> no argument
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Yes, you are right. I have to agree with you on both points!For myself, that really depends on what exactly happens in the clip. I don't remember that I've made harsh criticism of a clip without pointing out exactly what I think is bad in it and the reasons I think so. Unlike some forum members I don't just say "misunderstood", "confused", etc., do I?
I did have a pretty good laugh at this video though, but I don't think words would have been necessary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO5JxAI3CDw
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Sterling representative of the PBVT lineage!
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+1, well saidThat's exactly what we've been saying. Kevin wasn't able to show anything he talks about online. So sure, not PBVT
Of course, I think you're trying to suggest that Kevin, quite consciously, switched off all those years of training and reflexes and just did nothing except retreat backwards and chase hands in order to let Obasi do his thing... with a camera rolling, after having argued with Obasi online, and with the talk of challenges in the air.
A bit of a stretch. Unless PBVT is not about reflex and you guys think out your responses to attacks in the heat of the moment. The plot thickens...
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Yep, then LFJ responds by posting a clip panning Leung Ting ...which just proves your point, of course.LFJ, I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that if BPWT had posted a very similar clip but with a Leung Ting lineage guy getting handled by Obasi, you and the entire PBVT crew would have been all over it!!!!
On the other hand, remember that clip of Obasi working with Emin (another LT guy)?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-fElkCj0qk
Funny how that time Obasi never copped an attitude, and (unfortunately, in my opinion) never tried to free it up. Why? Well pretty obviously he was intimidated by Emin. So he just behaved himself like a student taking a lesson. Wonder why he wasn't intimidated by Kevin? You know, a tall guy, former bouncer and possessing those infinitely superior PBVT skills? Clearly Obasi doesn't follow this forum!!!
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Im not on the forum much these days, to be honest i think it has died a bit of a death over the last year or so, but this does warrant a comment or two given the history of the chaps in the video.
From my point of view, i didnt see Kevin do such a bad job against Obasi,i who is a big guy with a lot of cross-lineage chi-sao experience. He kept his balance and structure and could have delivered a punch, i feel, if he had practiced enough against people just like Sean..... that is; big, strong, experienced at the chose platform and unpredictable.
Kevin obviously doesnt, but he's hardly the only person guilty of that.
Emin on the other hand HAS done what Kevin hasnt, cross trained continuously against other styles/lineages, id suggest sparred a lot and so on.
He's prepared for an Obasi as he has trained for such an occasion. Doing bong-lap over and over with your mates wont get you there......................... period
Hats of the Kev though, you fronted, got it filmed and will learn from it...... mate, ring him up and do it again next week, youll only learn from it
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It really doesn't appear that he wasn't able to. He didn't even make a failed attempt. So I don't know what you're talking about. You're just taking the opportunity to fire back the criticism.That's exactly what we've been saying. Kevin wasn't able to show anything he talks about online. So sure, not PBVT
Sure, the method is about developing instinctive response, but it is volitional as well. You should be able to control yourself. If you were doing chi-sau with a little kid, you wouldn't automatically punch him in the face by reflex, would you? So, you can control yourself.Of course, I think you're trying to suggest that Kevin, quite consciously, switched off all those years of training and reflexes and just did nothing except retreat backwards and chase hands in order to let Obasi do his thing... with a camera rolling, after having argued with Obasi online, and with the talk of challenges in the air.
A bit of a stretch. Unless PBVT is not about reflex and you guys think out your responses to attacks in the heat of the moment. The plot thickens...
Just remember, you don't know the situation. You're just looking at a clip without complete context.
On Facebook, Obasi said he was deliberately shoving at Kevin to test his structure. That, I presume, is what Kevin referred to when he said Obasi was strong and pushed him to the limit. Despite that, he wasn't pushed out of the area or even into a vulnerable position and he maintained his structure. So, overall he didn't really fail the test.
We also don't know what happened afterward when he said this isn't our chi-sau. Maybe he then proceeded to take his turn demonstrating his method and testing Obasi. Take one 39 second clip with no context, and you can say almost anything about it...
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Sure, it's easy to speculate. So it's easy to say that such and such might have happened after the camera stopped rolling. As we don't know, all we can do is judge/examine what we saw when the camera was rolling. Like I said, Kevin kept his balance, kept to some extent his structure, and kept a level head. He also had the balls to meet with Obasi. All to be commended, especially considering how Obasi is big, strong and was steaming in, intent on proving a point (whatever point that might have been).
But he (Kevin) also failed to exhibited any of the PBVT hallmarks he posts about; the things that are seen in all of the videos he posts of PB drills, etc. He's posted in the past about how Chi Sau instills habits, and as you say the system and its training is geared towards giving/developing instinctive responses.
So yes, you're not going to hit a kid or a beginner full in the face - due to reflex response, but the instinctive response is not connected to how hard you strike, but the fact that you strike, or intercept and strike, or angle and strike, etc. When pushed, pulled and struck, I can't see Kevin doing anything that looks like the PBVT we've all seen in other clips. Indeed, he does numerous things that he says other lineages do and which he has said are 'wrong', 'misinterpretations', etc.
As was pointed out, Kevin owes me nothing (and owes nothing to anyone else on this forum - or other forums where this clip has been critiqued). I'm saying I'm surprised. After all that Kevin has said, I was expecting more; something better and more in line with his comments here. I was hoping to see more - wanted to see him apply the art as he describes it.
What I saw, is that when faced with a big, strong guy, he had trouble playing his game and handling the momentum. When unorthodox (read: crappy
Whatever (as Kevin would tell us).
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You're just bullsh!tting, man. He didn't even make a failed attempt so where do you see that he failed or had trouble applying his stuff successfully? He just didn't.
So you'd be unable to keep from hitting someone if all you're supposed to do is let them push and test your structure? Maybe you're just a violent person unable to control yourself?So yes, you're not going to hit a kid or a beginner full in the face - due to reflex response, but the instinctive response is not connected to how hard you strike, but the fact that you strike, or intercept and strike, or angle and strike, etc.
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I hate snakes. They scare the b'jesus out of me. If someone said, "Hey, grab that snake," and I saw it and stood rooted to the spot from fear (a real possibility) and I therefore made absolutely no attempt to grab that snake... I would have failed to grab it. I wouldn't say, "Nope, I didn't fail because actually I made no attempt to grab it."
Why did the clip fail to show any recognizable PBVT? I don't know. Maybe Kevin doesn't practice with people outside of the PBVT method. Maybe he doesn't train with people who play the way Obasi does. Maybe the drills he trains focus too much on dealing with the system as he trains it. Maybe he couldn't handle someone that big. I don't know why. I just know that I didn't see anything in that clip that looked like something from any of the hundreds of PBVT clips Kevin has posted.
You're saying that the two of them agreed that Obasi would push to test Kevin's structure, and that Kevin would not apply VT to defend - that they agreed Kevin would just try to keep his structure? If that is "all you're supposed to do" why was Obasi pulling, and striking and throwing in a few knees, etc? Why did Kevin post here to call this "Chi Sau"?
Kevin said, "That's not our Chi Sau." He didn't say, "That's not our Structure Test designed to see how we respond to being pushed."
If someone said to me, "I will push you and all you have to do keep structure," then of course I wouldn't automatically hit them. But these two were rolling and engaging in Gor Sau. They are not just pushing, but striking too. Such a setting is exactly where the "instinctive response" is meant to be found. In spontaneity, not in an isolated test of structure. And lets be honest, the reflex to strike into an open space is not just a reflex of, say, a punch. It is also a reflex to create an angle, to shift or step in response to something - and that too was missing in this clip.
Last edited by BPWT.; 02-03-2014 at 03:30 AM.
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But look - if you watch that video clip and from a PBVT perspective, or a WSLVT perspective, it answers all of your questions and/or satisfies your wants and needs regarding Ving Tsun.... then fair enough.
If you see in that clip Kevin doing what you would expect him to do based on his previous uploads (of PB video and Kevin's own text/posts and explanations)... then fair enough.
For me it was a disappointment, and in future when he posts about the Ving Tsun system, I will view his posts in light of the two video clips he's posted (this recent one and the one where he was with PB at the seminar in New Jersey).
You're entitled, and welcome as far as I'm concerned, to view this stuff however you wish.
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