Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[sihing]

This is not about the SYSTEM of WC but about a particular DRILL and the often-abused verbage that is " doesn't look like WC" even though no one can pin down what WC is SUPPOSE to look like in a "live" situation ( opponent is actively resisting).I agree that WC, in terms of fighting, is simple and direct. It claims as much over and over.
Of course, as we also see over and over and over. something gets lost in the translation when WC practitioners actually cross hands OUTSIDE their own kwoons and VS resisting opponents.
Even in controlled circumstances like the one in the video clip.
WHY that happens is the issue at hand, IMO.
And IMO the reason is that far too many WC practitioners spend time with "dead" drills VS one another instead of actually FIGHTING with their system.

This is why for me over the years that I've come to discover that WC/VT does not look like anything in particular when being used, when being applied. If you apply it like a style, like it is trained and such, you will see something similar to what you see in the video, two ppl travelling along the same lines, and trying to deal with it, both Shawn and Kev have different responses to that clash of force.


Chi sau, as most of the WC system is, is pure development, it takes someone from swining wildly and hoping to land something, to someone that has their hands in front of them (not extended in Wu sau, just infront), has a connected power base via the whole body and the joints/power points, good aim (where you want to hit you hit), and the ability to hit in the same place again or adjust that aim to another direction, the ability to recover, maintain a sense of balance and equanimity, short power generation, some sensitivity to contact on the arms and body so that one can react quicker... these are just a few things, but how one person applies it will be different from how another will apply, due to a variety of factors, size, physical ability, skill set ability, understanding, intent, interest level and intensity while training, why do they train...so it won't look the same between two different ppl, generally anyways, boxers sort of look alike, but all of them have their personal style as to how to deliver their tools to the target, Ali didn't look like Frazier, but both threw jabs, crosses, hooks, upper cuts.. the only time two ppl will look alike is if they do WC like a style, which IMO is like fighting like a robot!

James

[Phil Redmond]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

[YouKnowWho]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

Chi Shou + grappling can be quite powerful.

The 摊手(Tan Shou) is the same as

- 褂 Gua,
- comb the hair,
- arm wrapping.

You can use it to

- wrap your opponent's arm,
- get him into over hook,
- get him into a head lock.

The "扶手(Fu Shou)" is the same as

- mantis arm,
- single collar tie, or
- upper lapel grip.

If you use your "left 摊手 (Tan Shou)" to wrap your opponent's right arm, use your right "扶手(Fu Shou)" to control his neck, a "云(Yun) - clockwise twisting, followed by a counter-clocking twisting" can set up almost any throw that you want to apply. The grappling door is open right there. All you need is just to walk through it.

For a pure striking art, you may not need sticky hands, For a pure grappling art, you definitely need sticky hands.

[sihing]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

Hi Phil,

I agree that if all you do is chi sau you will not learn how to fight, not necessarily. You will learn something, as it is better to do just chi sau than sit on the couch...but for me anyways chi sau is much more than sensitivity.

I need fok sau to learn tan sau. By learn I mean my body has to know how to do it right, it has to connect all the joints, and relax the shoulder/forearm enough to let the power come from the grounded support thru the tan, for that to happen I need fok sau, doing the samething I am (tan is outside forearm engagement, fok is inside arm engagement when there is bridge contact, if there isn't one just hits). We learn via pressure vs pressure, it forges our structure and allows us to build it up right like a foundation of a building. Sensitivity is like the 4 or 5th attribute gained via chi sau IMO, it's a sub set skill..

How are we to learn how to sit our weight, learn how to use our bodies so it has power, balance, mobility, if there is no pressure applied to it via the prolonged contact drills like chi sau or pushing hands for tai chi? You can practice in the air all you want, but when pressure is applied to your body and frame, it may break down and crumble, so we use pressure to make the frame strong, and connected, and to also train aim and centerline/COM awareness (within ourselves and our opponents)..I've was taught that VT structure is like a car that has been designed to handle a crash, it breaks down in stages and steps so that the passengers are protected as best as possible, this is the same for our VT, it collapses as needed (this is where sensitivity comes in..), and re adjusts our line of attack to take advantage of any openings and holes in an opponents defense, as best we can anyways, if no collapse is needed, we blast thru (lat sau jik chung)

If all you have is sensitivity via chi sau, but no aim, no power, no balance, no recover, no facing, then what good is the drill?

James

[BPWT.]

Well on Obassi's facebook page
@jamie
i can live with it, because there are everywhere these kind of idiots... in all lineages... but just for the info again: kevin did very bad! also because he did so many years wingchun than gone to philipp and in that 7 years he saw philipp bayer 2 times!!! 2!!!

I dont think, that shawn respects philipp anymore, but i know the next time when he touch hands with philipp, then philipp will show him giving 100%... maybe that will change shawns mind, and not a pbvt rookie that claimed himself as THE MAN in us forums... and this is not fanboy trash... To be honest, shawn is maybe a good guy but he´s now completely wrong with his thinking of his skilllevel. I also said, "come to germany i show you many guys, that will show you, you´re far away from philipp" by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards

Interesting, if accurate.

[Ali. R]

A person can be really good at Chi Sao but can't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. Chi Sao is simply a sensitivity drill, nothing more.

It’s a lot of misconceptions on ‘Chi Sao’: size, height, weight, and strength as nothing to do with it, just like when you fight in the streets. There is no such thing as the tale of the tapes. It’s all based on one’s level of resolve (courage and fine tune disciplined within his/her art). If he/she does well in ‘Ch Sao’ and can’t fight, then he/she was never a fighter to begin with.

But for the trained eye, watching good ‘Chi Sao’ would tell the hold story (timing, positioning, body unity and power) when topped with a strong resolve could be devastating. Now if your ‘Chi Sao’ is poor, it will be a very strong chance that your wing chun fighting will be as well, but that may not be the case with ones resolve or determination.


Take care,

[KPM]

What should be clear to anyone who watches the clip with an unbiased eye, is that Kevin didn't make an attempt to apply his method. To criticize it is an obvious stretch to find something to throw back at Kevin for his critical words of your lineages. That's the real bottom line, I think. Keep in mind, I haven't met Kevin, haven't met Philipp, and don't train PBVT lineage.

To quote the man of the hour...."whatever dude!" I think you're full of it.

[Frost]

Completely agree! I've seen too many schools, even in the heartland, HK, that only work on forms for a bit and then endless hours of chi-sau and seemingly never actually spar- even amongst themselves. Chi-sau can be said to be the 'heart' of wing chun, but addiction to it will lead to a fatal heart attack in the real!

Its amazing I have been on this forum now for about 10 years as a reader and then member, and in that time I have watched nearly every member say thy recognise this problem with wing chun, but assure everyone who will listen that they train differently and as such can make this simple direct system work, but of course cant post any clips of them or their lineage actually doing this, we just have to trust their word that they are doing the sparring etc and as a result can it work against other systems
And when we do finally see clips from the majority of people they look like what kevin posted……strange that

[Paddington]

[...] by the way philipp also was very angry with kevin because of his skill level and talking about other lineages... because he also always says no one is untouchable and wong shun leung sigung always said, if you fight, you will get hit. regards

I hope Kev takes note.

[Graham H]

Some people never learn.
I guess we all learnt that you're tough talking and BS only works on forums not outside the internet

Mmmm. Tough talking on the internet eh? My BS only works on forums? Ok, if you think that. No problem.

I tend not post on the forums anymore because I think it is futile. Until two people meet nobody can say anything about each others Wing Chun. I have never rubbished anybody's fighting skills. I have only questioned peoples ideas if they don't make sense to me and yes I have also pushed those ideas too far.

IMO Philipp Bayers ideas on Ving Tsun are second to none. I think using his ideas in the context of Ving Tsun is better for people than most of the esoteric fancy flip flop nonsense that is out there today. I have come to realize, however, that maybe that was a foolish thing to say as some people cannot make even the simplest ideas work for them. Instead they look to add other ideas which is fine if it improves their overall fighting ability. In fact as we are all different it is ok to have other ideas even of they are conflicting with each other. Nobodies "way" is perfect! We as people are far from perfect.

Philipp is very competent at Wing Chun. In fact he is the best I have seen by a huge margin. That does not mean to say that all his students will be great or even good. I personally try my best to improve my own Wing Chun. Posting on the internet and arguing with people does nothing for the individual or the system. We are all practically in the same position and we are also all guilty of getting involved in some sorts of flame wars and bickering. Some more than others.

As for the Obassi clip I think it was not good for either guy or Wing Chun. Rather than speculate its better to leave it there. What is the point in fighting with each other about it? What is the point of rubbishing PBVT or even Obassi VT? It's between Shawn and Kevin and in many aspects we can all learn lessons from it.

The important thing is that we all take care of ourselves and continue to do what we enjoy.

I personally think posting on the www about VT does more harm than good so I prefer to opt out now. I can continue to research my nonsense in peace

[Graham H]

BTW my statement about most of you being idiots was wrong but I do think all this arguing about a youtube clip is still idiotic. It achieves nothing for anybody.

Kev was wrong, Shawn was wrong, we all are wrong. Who cares?

[BPWT.]

Mmmm. Tough talking on the internet eh? My BS only works on forums? Ok, if you think that. No problem.

I tend not post on the forums anymore because I think it is futile. Until two people meet nobody can say anything about each others Wing Chun. I have never rubbished anybody's fighting skills. I have only questioned peoples ideas if they don't make sense to me and yes I have also pushed those ideas too far.

IMO Philipp Bayers ideas on Ving Tsun are second to none. I think using his ideas in the context of Ving Tsun is better for people than most of the esoteric fancy flip flop nonsense that is out there today. I have come to realize, however, that maybe that was a foolish thing to say as some people cannot make even the simplest ideas work for them. Instead they look to add other ideas which is fine if it improves their overall fighting ability. In fact as we are all different it is ok to have other ideas even of they are conflicting with each other. Nobodies "way" is perfect! We as people are far from perfect.

Philipp is very competent at Wing Chun. In fact he is the best I have seen by a huge margin. That does not mean to say that all his students will be great or even good. I personally try my best to improve my own Wing Chun. Posting on the internet and arguing with people does nothing for the individual or the system. We are all practically in the same position and we are also all guilty of getting involved in some sorts of flame wars and bickering. Some more than others.

As for the Obassi clip I think it was not good for either guy or Wing Chun. Rather than speculate its better to leave it there. What is the point in fighting with each other about it? What is the point of rubbishing PBVT or even Obassi VT? It's between Shawn and Kevin and in many aspects we can all learn lessons from it.

The important thing is that we all take care of ourselves and continue to do what we enjoy.

I personally think posting on the www about VT does more harm than good so I prefer to opt out now. I can continue to research my nonsense in peace

Probably the best and most honest post I've read from you.

The only sad thing in all of this, is that if PB is indeed unhappy with what he's seen/read from Kevin then it is likely that we'll have very few posts (if any) from the PBVT guys in the future. Which is a shame - when we're not all arguing (I'm as guilty as the next man) it's interesting to hear about others and how they approach and teach the system (regardless of lineage - or perhaps because of different lineage).

[KPM]

Mmmm. Tough talking on the internet eh? My BS only works on forums? Ok, if you think that. No problem.

I tend not post on the forums anymore because I think it is futile. Until two people meet nobody can say anything about each others Wing Chun. I have never rubbished anybody's fighting skills. I have only questioned peoples ideas if they don't make sense to me and yes I have also pushed those ideas too far.

IMO Philipp Bayers ideas on Ving Tsun are second to none. I think using his ideas in the context of Ving Tsun is better for people than most of the esoteric fancy flip flop nonsense that is out there today. I have come to realize, however, that maybe that was a foolish thing to say as some people cannot make even the simplest ideas work for them. Instead they look to add other ideas which is fine if it improves their overall fighting ability. In fact as we are all different it is ok to have other ideas even of they are conflicting with each other. Nobodies "way" is perfect! We as people are far from perfect.

Philipp is very competent at Wing Chun. In fact he is the best I have seen by a huge margin. That does not mean to say that all his students will be great or even good. I personally try my best to improve my own Wing Chun. Posting on the internet and arguing with people does nothing for the individual or the system. We are all practically in the same position and we are also all guilty of getting involved in some sorts of flame wars and bickering. Some more than others.

As for the Obassi clip I think it was not good for either guy or Wing Chun. Rather than speculate its better to leave it there. What is the point in fighting with each other about it? What is the point of rubbishing PBVT or even Obassi VT? It's between Shawn and Kevin and in many aspects we can all learn lessons from it.

The important thing is that we all take care of ourselves and continue to do what we enjoy.

I personally think posting on the www about VT does more harm than good so I prefer to opt out now. I can continue to research my nonsense in peace

+1 That was a good post Graham. Too bad we don't see that side of you more often!

[Graham H]

Probably the best and most honest post I've read from you.

The only sad thing in all of this, is that if PB is indeed unhappy with what he's seen/read from Kevin then it is likely that we'll have very few posts (if any) from the PBVT guys in the future. Which is a shame - when we're not all arguing (I'm as guilty as the next man) it's interesting to hear about others and how they approach and teach the system (regardless of lineage - or perhaps because of different lineage).

I have no problem with getting involved in productive discussions. Historically that never happens on WC forums. Not just this one. All of them. There are so many conflicting ideas that a soon as one guy says one thing another will say another then the whole "I shared a bed with Yip Man so I know best" argument comes into play.

Everybody knows that the ideas we have in our lineage differ greatly from many other lineages of Wing Chun. We don't advocate the whole "sticky" idea so if 99 guys are saying yes and one says no which will be the one who gets attacked? It's always the minority.

Our approach to Wing Chun has been dissected many times on this forum usually during arguments and we are no further into Utopia than we were 5 years ago. Its the nature of the beast unfortunately. My personal approach is that if I hear or see something I want to know more about I go and see for myself and make my own decisions based on hands on experience. For me that is 100 times better than trying to figure it out via text.

[Graham H]

+1 That was a good post Graham. Too bad we don't see that side of you more often!

Wing Chun/Ving Tsun is a funny world and in order to progress in it we must become aware of our mistakes then try correct them. No biggie but thanks anyway.