Obasse & Kevin Gledhill chi sau

[LFJ]

C'mon. Two people argue online, agree to meet and test with some Chi Sau, and you think they are going to roll in Poon Sao only? It is obvious that they'll play in Gor Sau. If Kevin was critical of Obasi's Wing Chun, it was surely from watching clips of Obasi doing Chi Sau.

Not sure that's how it went down. No one's talking. All I saw from Obasi is that he had a "challenge fight" lined up and then changed his mind about fighting but still met him nonetheless. Kevin's composure certainly didn't make it seem like they were in any agreed upon challenge match...

Kevin was manhandled, pushed and pulled back and forth. Obasi got through numerous times - he just wasn't trying to kill Kevin.

I don't think it was half that bad. PB literally has people backed to the walls, completely shut down, and even knocked on their asses in his gwo-sau clips. Nothing of the sort happened to Kevin. Despite Obasi's shoving and using his mass, Kevin still kept it in a small area and I don't really see anything clean that got through on him. Obasi was just shoving at him. Even when Kevin was pushed or pulled it didn't really serve much purpose, as he wasn't put into a vulnerable position and Obasi didn't gain any real strikes from it.

We should have seen Kevin's method from the get go! If Kevin trains the Chi Sau and Lop Da drills that we see so much of in PBVT video clips, why, when faced with some free flowing Gor Sau, can't he implement the PBVT methods?

I don't know. Everything leading up to the meeting and the two very different composures are all very confusing. There could be a number of possible reasons Kevin didn't really do anything but try to make arm contact. But no one's talking.

If you think that there's "not much to criticize" from this clip, especially in light of all that Kevin has posted over the years, then I think you're not really being very honest.

Honestly, I think the only way we can really see each method as it should be used is if they sparred. Chi-sau between two different lineages to settle a dispute is always going to be an ugly mess.

[LFJ]

I did not say there was value to Obasi chi sau. The point is simple. We have 3 vid's of Obasi being Obasi in chi sau doing what he does . The only person unable to deal with it is the PBVT expert Kevin. He and other PBVT converts have run down Sam Kwok yet his grand student, a student of Phil Nearing if my guess is correct, does a much better job of dealing with Obasi and then we have a much smaller person from Alan Goldberg ,wing chun through Jason Lau,Richard Chen, Moy Yat does an even better job of handling Obasi.

After years of reading how great PBVT is and how Sam Kwok , Moy Yat, Ip Chun Ip Ching Augustine Fong ets is all inferior to what PB teaches it is enlighting to see that when faced by a different non compliant person only the PBVT Sifu is totally incapable of dealing with it while others that are not sifu's and do not claim to train with pro boxers or having defeated countless drunks as a bar bouncer etc are able to hold their own against the very same person doing the very same pushing,muscling stuff.

True, but I think these other lineages are used to that sort of messy, arm-struggle chi-sau. All this demonstrates is that each method is best against similar approaches. PBVT chi-sau is designed to work with PBVT chi-sau, because it is a developmental drill designed to train skills specific to this method.

After all, it's just chi-sau, not fighting. What would be more telling is if they both used their respective methods in a free sparring match, not some artificial arm-wrestling game. It's all fake if we're trying to judge how "fight-effective" they are based off chi-sau. We get that, right?

[KPM]

LFJ, I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that if BPWT had posted a very similar clip but with a Leung Ting lineage guy getting handled by Obasi, you and the entire PBVT crew would have been all over it!!!!

[Ali. R]

Politics in its finesse form; no salt on my popcorn please, thank you.


Take care,

[LFJ]

LFJ, I could be wrong, but I would be willing to bet that if BPWT had posted a very similar clip but with a Leung Ting lineage guy getting handled by Obasi, you and the entire PBVT crew would have been all over it!!!!

For myself, that really depends on what exactly happens in the clip. I don't remember that I've made harsh criticism of a clip without pointing out exactly what I think is bad in it and the reasons I think so. Unlike some forum members I don't just say "misunderstood", "confused", etc., do I?

I did have a pretty good laugh at this video though, but I don't think words would have been necessary: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO5JxAI3CDw

[BPWT.]

True, but I think these other lineages are used to that sort of messy, arm-struggle chi-sau. All this demonstrates is that each method is best against similar approaches. PBVT chi-sau is designed to work with PBVT chi-sau, because it is a developmental drill designed to train skills specific to this method. After all, it's just chi-sau, not fighting. What would be more telling is if they both used their respective methods in a free sparring match, not some artificial arm-wrestling game. It's all fake if we're trying to judge how "fight-effective" they are based off chi-sau. We get that, right?

It's absolutely true, IMO, that Chi Sau is a developmental drill - and there are lots of ways to train Chi Sau. But Gor Sau is about mixing it up and seeing how you're able to apply the art's motions, concepts, etc, in a free-flowing way, against someone who is not simply letting you work something particular.

There's lots of clips of PB doing Chi Sau with his students - and in many of those clips he initiates an attack and the students do very little to try and stop a string of his attacks. It doesn't matter, I guess, if you're working something specific and the roles are reversed and each person, each time, gains something from the exercise. Like you say, that is not fighting but it is a teaching tool.

But Gor Sau is about testing how you deal with resistance. It starts from Poon Sau to create a set range - but when things get going the range/distance changes. Kevin and Obasi were clearly engaging in Gor Sau (even if Obasi looked sloppy), and Kevin's ability to apply what he learns and teaches in Chi Sau wasn't up to much when dealing with a heavy, strong, resisting and aggressive Obasi.

Hunt1's comment was on the money. Others have played like this with Obasi and handled him better. Again, we saw next to nothing of what Kevin preaches online, in this exchange.

Put it another way... if Kevin had closed down most of Obasi's attacks, had clearly shown forward energy and LSJC, displacing Obasi's limbs so he could hit, had been striking open gaps by angling to hit, and had shown (like in all the PB drills on video that Kevin posts) the use of lin sil di da, then you'd be saying this was an excellent example of how good the PBVT method is (and I'd be saying it too, along with most of the forum).

Unfortunately, things didn't work out that way. The bubble burst a little.

[LFJ]

Put it another way... if Kevin had closed down most of Obasi's attacks, had clearly shown forward energy and LSJC, displacing Obasi's limbs so he could hit, had been striking open gaps by angling to hit, and had shown (like in all the PB drills on video that Kevin posts) the use of lin sil di da, then you'd be saying this was an excellent example of how good the PBVT method is (and I'd be saying it too, along with most of the forum).

I still don't think this clip is really proof that Kevin can't apply his method, only that he didn't, and we're left to wonder why. It would not have been difficult, I think. If it were obvious that he was trying to and it was being broken down like the students vs PB, that would be another thing. I didn't see him trying to do anything really and his composure didn't suggest that he was under stress in trying to apply his method. If on the other hand that was his honest best attempt, then I have to wonder how much personal training time he's had with PB. Could he be the next generation of "seminar student", like some of PB's si-dai were under WSL?

[hunt1]

[QUOTE=LFJ;1261063]True, but I think these other lineages are used to that sort of messy, arm-struggle chi-sau. All this demonstrates is that each method is best against similar approaches. PBVT chi-sau is designed to work with PBVT chi-sau, because it is a developmental drill designed to train skills specific to this method.

If this is true then PBVT has very little real world value. In most wing chun chi sau is used to develop skills to be used in defending yourself ie a fight. Skills are not developed to be good at chi sau. The most common thing in a fight is an opponent that will grab push and use muscle. This is the most basic real world situation. What ever skills Kevin has developed in PBVT there was no evidence that the skill to deal with the most common real world situation exists. Basic rule number 1 of wing chun is receive what comes. Kevin used step away. Now run away when dealing with intense forward energy may be basic to PBVT and if that is the case Kevin performed perfectly however that is not how other wing chun families are taught to deal with incoming energy.


Also you can deal with intense forwarding and muscle without punching or raising the level up to a fight just look at how the other guys dealt with the same thing.

[LFJ]

If this is true then PBVT has very little real world value. In most wing chun chi sau is used to develop skills to be used in defending yourself ie a fight.

None of the clips in this thread show fights. How one handles another in chi-sau doesn't necessarily show how they'll fare in a fight. To think so is fantasy.

Skills are not developed to be good at chi sau.

Exactly. So why compare who's better against someone at chi-sau? They are people with different methods misusing a developmental drill that should be used to develop skills specific to one's own method to compete with one another and judge it as if it were fighting. It's pure fantasy-fighting.

[LFJ]

Also you can deal with intense forwarding and muscle without punching or raising the level up to a fight just look at how the other guys dealt with the same thing.

Depends on your method and what you train it for, I suppose. Not everyone trains to arm-wrestle.

[BPWT.]

I still don't think this clip is really proof that Kevin can't apply his method....

I think it is proof he couldn't apply it against Obasi. But I think, at heart, that you know what I'm saying, what Hunt1 is saying and what KPM is saying. And I think from your posts, that you understand it and probably agree with it to a certain extent.

If on the other hand that was his honest best attempt, then I have to wonder how much personal training time he's had with PB. Could he be the next generation of "seminar student", like some of PB's si-dai were under WSL?

I've no idea how often PB travels to the US, or how often Kevin travels to Germany. But I think all of the PBVT guys on this forum are based outside of Germany, so they are all probably limited to visiting for seminars or selective general class practice. I don't even know when Kevin first started under PB (5 years ago? 10? 15?).

[LFJ]

I think it is proof he couldn't apply it against Obasi. But I think, at heart, that you know what I'm saying, what Hunt1 is saying and what KPM is saying. And I think from your posts, that you understand it and probably agree with it to a certain extent.

I don't know. I gave my opinion on what I saw. I didn't see Kevin even attempt anything. I mean, a single palm strike, punch, even a jam-sau... it wouldn't be that hard to try. Not even a failed attempt was made. So there's really not much to say, except that he didn't do anything.

[Graham H]

From the forum's homepage I've seen that Graham, Sean and T-Ray have also visited a few times since this thread was started. All of the PBVT guys are staying quiet regarding this clip. And PB himself has not posted any response to it (that I have seen) on the German forum he often posts on.

The reason I'm not posting has nothing to do with that video clip. It's because I think most of you are idiots.

[JPinAZ]

Obasi didn't fall down. His "lack of balance, root" may indicate that he has good "dynamic rooting - lose rooting and regain it back ability". Also why "grabbing" is bad thing?

If you train or understand wing chun principles, you wouldn't have to ask these questions. But since you are from SJ background, I can understand why you would have no problem with what shawn does.

Just a reminder, the clip has 'chi sau' in the title.

[Wayfaring]

There's two aspects to this exchange:

1) Politics

2) Techniques

Politics, who cares.

Techniques, my observations:

To comment on the techniques portion of this, I looked at Obasi's youtube channel and his clips. It appears he's been doing a lot of this, traveling around to chi sau with different people. He appears to start the exchange like most people practice chi sau, then switches over to a wrist control grip fighting tactic and uses strength and size to control the movements. He'll fold an elbow over the top of a wrist grab for a strike and also to bring bodies close enough for a knee strike. It looks to me like his grip strength, size and overall strength is making it tougher for smaller opponents to do much.

All I can really note as to this approach is that it seems to be effective at shutting down chi sau. He is playing in a chi sau range, but with a grapplers intent. A grapplers intent is to maintain the connection to your opponent. However a striker's intent is not to maintain the connection. Wrist grabs by someone stronger than you that also can move and preserve center kind of expose a weakness to the chi sau drill if someone doesn't play along.

So what should you do? The correct approach is that you need to free up a limb and blast. Control the distance. Knee strikes work both ways not just one if someone is in close, need to block knees and throw your own. To strip the grip of someone with stronger grip strength than you, you need to work against it with it in closer to your body and your opponent's arm extended. huen, change angles, strip, etc. Then once it's free blast hard. They'll be looking to grip again - make them pay. What else? Knees, trips, leg kicks. If someone has both my wrists but not my center I'll blast straight up the middle with a kick with the right alignment. Basically though, you need to practice it with people trying to grab you like that. Also, if you can get a guy stretched out short/long on one side with wrist grabs, you can come over the short side with an elbow. A good elbow has calming effects.

The problem with doing this in a chi sau arrangement is that it will probably escalate the situation into a fight.