Chasing Hands

[KPM]

"Chasing Hands" is typically considered to be a cardinal sin in Wing Chun. But what does it mean to "chase hands"? I'm betting that this will differ between lineages like many things in Wing Chun.

I think most would agree that this refers to using wasted motions in some way. Often we think of Wing Chun as a direct tool for maximum impact. So we don't use a lot of flowery motions, just hit! But what if all you want to do is control drunk uncle Bob and not smash him in the face? Is staying on the defensive, not striking into openings when you could have, and controlling someone in a case like this still "chasing hands"?

My feeling is that if you have gone beyond 3 defensive counts/beats/techniques without launching an offensive technique of some kind, then you are "chasing hands." Even with drunk uncle Bob, you should be using an offensive technique that turns and off-balances him or controls him in some way without necessarily hurting him. This is where Kum Na/Chin Na techniques come in. But most people's Wing Chun doesn't have much of this.

How do you guys define "chasing hands"?

[BPWT.]

How do you guys define "chasing hands"?

IMO, in the simplest terms, if I am looking to stick to/join with/deflect my opponent's arms, without trying to strike/control their center, then I am probably chasing hands.

But it's a tough thing to define in exact terms, as sometimes sh!t happens and you need to make the best of a situation until you can do what you really want to do.

David Peterson wrote a nice article about "LLHS, LSJC" and in it he makes a good point about what is and isn't chasing hands:

If the attack should come in the midst of an already close-quarters situation (typical in Chi Sau training and very typical in actual combat where some attempt at grappling or body control has occurred), then the Loi Lau concept takes on an even more literal meaning because we WILL need to "stick" to the attacking limb in order to effectively control it and retain the ability to "feel" what may be coming next until free to strike effectively. Again, this does NOT imply "chasing the arms" pointlessly, but to stay in control and press towards the opponent's centre.

Peterson has a knack for making good points, and making them clearly.

[kung fu fighter]

"Chasing Hands" is typically considered to be a cardinal sin in Wing Chun. But what does it mean to "chase hands"? I'm betting that this will differ between lineages like many things in Wing Chun.

I think most would agree that this refers to using wasted motions in some way. Often we think of Wing Chun as a direct tool for maximum impact. So we don't use a lot of flowery motions, just hit! But what if all you want to do is control drunk uncle Bob and not smash him in the face? Is staying on the defensive, not striking into openings when you could have, and controlling someone in a case like this still "chasing hands"?

My feeling is that if you have gone beyond 3 defensive counts/beats/techniques without launching an offensive technique of some kind, then you are "chasing hands." Even with drunk uncle Bob, you should be using an offensive technique that turns and off-balances him or controls him in some way without necessarily hurting him. This is where Kum Na/Chin Na techniques come in. But most people's Wing Chun doesn't have much of this.

How do you guys define "chasing hands"?

Chasing hands are any action that does not have an attacking the opponent's centerline intent, this can be directly or indirectly. Here is a an example of good chi sao which does not chase hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRs-W5UYJEY
starting at 3:48 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLC2fgYxdjw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nvfCJHyui0

[KPM]

Chasing hands are any action that does not have an attacking the opponent's centerline intent, this can be directly or indirectly.

Ok. Two of you have now keyed in on the idea of attacking the opponent's centerline. What if I pivot 90 degrees as I do a "Lung Na" technique to turn them and lock their arm? I end up standing beside them with both of us facing in the same direction. Is controlling the opponent's ability to maintain his center the same as attacking his centerline?

[KPM]

When your opponent

- kicks you, if you "catch" his kicking leg, he can't kick you any more.
- punches you, if you "wrap" his punching arm, he can't punch you any more.

In order to "wrap" your opponent's arm, your arms have to go where his elbow joint or shoulder joint is.

John, I don't know what you are getting at. Grappling is chasing hands? Are you saying this as a good thing?

[kung fu fighter]

Ok. Two of you have now keyed in on the idea of attacking the opponent's centerline. What if I pivot 90 degrees as I do a "Lung Na" technique to turn them and lock their arm? I end up standing beside them with both of us facing in the same direction. Is controlling the opponent's ability to maintain his center the same as attacking his centerline?

"Lung Na" would be an indirect method of controlling the opponent's centerline, since your intent is still to distroy the opponent's centerline.

Yup!
For example, I think the gary lam vid that was posted had a little chasing in it...but...if that dude can do his thing and still whoop a$$...does that make him a crappy wc exponent?

What you refer to as chasing hands is use of elbow force to apply the indirect method of controlling the opponent's centerline. Sometimes I use only my structure to pull the opponent off balance without the need to grab with my fingers thus distroying his balance. If you didn't understand what i am doing, you would think I am just chasing hands, but in reality i have locked onto my opponent's centerline and center of gravity completely controlling and dominating it. I believe what sifu Leblanc is doing is probably very similar to this.

[Subitai]

He made a good point in that clip. If you allow your opponent's arms to move however that he wants to, it's your mistake. So in WC sticky hands, since your are relax and allow your opponent to move his arms freely, you may just give too much freedom to your opponent's arms.

I decided to bring (copy) this over to this thread.

I like this guy cause he's Filipino and likes to make jokes...i'm sure he'd be pretty fun to hang out with.

But beside that i'm glad I don't do WC. Ok before I comment, he could easily say it's a WC vid..."so pi$$ off"... Fair enough.

I'm still going to make my points:

Too much desire to stay in the chi sau mode = It must be nice to live in a world where you only train (fight) against other WC?
too much desire to try and LOOK chi sau...it's about as futile as trying to LOOK kung fu.

The problem of Hit for Hit he's talking about at (5:15) is a problem with his desire for "is it a drill or not". = It's not a problem unless you make it so and you can't force everyone else NON WC into a chi sau mode.

He wants to get other people to stick to him even if that's not what they want to do, a futile endeavor. Many people have gotten knocked out trying to do just that. The best answer is you deal with what he gives you...it's called following.

At 6:50 he's talking about chasing him... WHY? I wouldn't, if his bridge goes wide, I either help it to go wider(with control) or I take the center. No problem.

Right around (7min) He ramps up the structure and is now what he's calls "SET". What he's doing there is just a mild control and also reserved ...he's basically listening to follow... Hence what I was saying. There is no method without counter however so his opponent shouldn't take this bait and allow that. There's a couple of easy ways to handle that...instead he freezes for the demo and get's hit.

Oh my goodness at 7:50 when he claims it's hard for his opponent to move??? That's a perfect example of what's wrong with his topic.

Lastly at 9min haha...so if I do decide to move back, I have bring him with me? The guy moves back but his arm bridges are just dead fish motionless???

Chi Sau is just that Chi sau... that's not touching hands. In my book that means; you do whatever it is you do and I'll do the same. In the end, it shouldn't matter what it looks like so long as you know who's better and to a lessor extent... did you learn something from it?

[KPM]

Subitai: So what does your post have to do with the current topic of "chasing hands"? And I'll point out here that "chasing hands" is not limited to Chi Sao.

[KPM]

"Lung Na" would be an indirect method of controlling the opponent's centerline, since your intent is still to distroy the opponent's centerline.


.

Hi Navin!

So your answer is "yes"? Controlling the opponent's centerline is the same thing as attacking the centerline and a Chin Na type technique wouldn't be considered "chasing hands" from a WCK perspective?

Here's another example of what I'm saying from Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun. TWC will sometimes use a "Chuen Sau" motion to move to the "blindside." For those unfamiliar with TWC, this is like doing a Biu to defend against a wide swinging punch followed by another Biu to move the punch to the inside and turn the opponent followed almost immediately by a Lop to unbalance him so you can attack. Many people outside of TWC have criticized them for "chasing hands" with this technique. They criticize it because they note that the TWC fighter could have simply defended and punched straight up the center from the beginning. But it involves only 3 defensive movements before launching your attack and it turns the opponent so that it controls his center. So as far as I am concerned, this is not "chasing hands."

[Subitai]

Subitai: So what does your post have to do with the current topic of "chasing hands"? And I'll point out here that "chasing hands" is not limited to Chi Sao.

My bad...I didn't answer your question. But there was a part that spoke about the topic

To answer your question: IMO chasing hands is anytime you continue to engage in doing so... even when your goal is something else. I think that's the nice way to put it.

So in your example...Chasing drunk uncle is not so bad of a thing since your goal was NOT to hurt him. On the flip side, if you want to hit someone but fail to do so (or leave yourself vulnerable) because of obvious chasing reasons, then you have your answer.

[kung fu fighter]

Hi Navin!

So your answer is "yes"? Controlling the opponent's centerline is the same thing as attacking the centerline and a Chin Na type technique wouldn't be considered "chasing hands" from a WCK perspective?

Essentially yes, but attacking the centerline does not necessarily mean always striking it, attack can take many forms including but not limited to sucking/spitting, sinking/rising, to wrapping/entangling and winding. Wing chun has a specific way of applying chin-na and throws/takedowns that comes directly from the centerline principle using loi hoi sung lat sao jit chung.

Hi Navin!Here's another example of what I'm saying from Cheung's Traditional Wing Chun. TWC will sometimes use a "Chuen Sau" motion to move to the "blindside." For those unfamiliar with TWC, this is like doing a Biu to defend against a wide swinging punch followed by another Biu to move the punch to the inside and turn the opponent followed almost immediately by a Lop to unbalance him so you can attack. Many people outside of TWC have criticized them for "chasing hands" with this technique. They criticize it because they note that the TWC fighter could have simply defended and punched straight up the center from the beginning. But it involves only 3 defensive movements before launching your attack and it turns the opponent so that it controls his center. So as far as I am concerned, this is not "chasing hands."

Having done TWC back in the late 90's, I am very familar with the TWC "Chuen Sau" motion. However, I believe wck motions should be applied extremely close in always threaten the opponent with your attacking centerline intent to keep him on the defensive. Your attacking intent should never be off center even if it's for a split second. Doing so would leave you in a vernerible defensive position which any good opponent can exploit and capitalize on using false attacks to open you up. If an opponent thows looping circular attacks and I immediately counter attack inside his arms. I do a winding/clearing motion to transition and capture the opponent's flank, accomplishing the same end result of a "Chuen Sau", but done in a more aggressive manner to distroy the opponent's balance, upright posture and taking his postion.

[dcrjradmonish]

My definition of chasing hands would be any time you go to make contact of any sort and miss you are chasing hands.

Any time you make contact offensive the definition would be feeding hands. Defensive sticking hands.

[KPM]

My definition of chasing hands would be any time you go to make contact of any sort and miss you are chasing hands.

Any time you make contact offensive the definition would be feeding hands. Defensive sticking hands.

Sorry, but I don't particularly like that definition. What if someone throws a punch that gets deflected so that it misses. Where they "chasing hands"? What if someone starts to do a Pak Sao but the opponent is faster and redirects their strike so that the Pak Sao misses? Is that "chasing hands"?

[tc101]

"Chasing Hands" is typically considered to be a cardinal sin in Wing Chun. But what does it mean to "chase hands"? I'm betting that this will differ between lineages like many things in Wing Chun.

I think most would agree that this refers to using wasted motions in some way. Often we think of Wing Chun as a direct tool for maximum impact. So we don't use a lot of flowery motions, just hit! But what if all you want to do is control drunk uncle Bob and not smash him in the face? Is staying on the defensive, not striking into openings when you could have, and controlling someone in a case like this still "chasing hands"?

My feeling is that if you have gone beyond 3 defensive counts/beats/techniques without launching an offensive technique of some kind, then you are "chasing hands." Even with drunk uncle Bob, you should be using an offensive technique that turns and off-balances him or controls him in some way without necessarily hurting him. This is where Kum Na/Chin Na techniques come in. But most people's Wing Chun doesn't have much of this.

How do you guys define "chasing hands"?

What if I am using the tools of wing chun in a way that you believe is a cardinal sin or in a way you think I'm not supposed to do things but I am making it work very well for me?

[dcrjradmonish]

Sorry, but I don't particularly like that definition. What if someone throws a punch that gets deflected so that it misses. Where they "chasing hands"? What if someone starts to do a Pak Sao but the opponent is faster and redirects their strike so that the Pak Sao misses? Is that "chasing hands"?

I should of ended buy saying I'm not a wing chun guy. I'm looking at it as a beginner level student who has tried lots of systems. That is the description of what I took out of the term chasing hands. But as far as the someone throwing a punch at you there feeding you if you make contact with your deflection as it should be destructive. When I was in Kenpo my Sifu would have other Sifu from many systems come and work out with us share drills wing chun sticky hands was one of them. If I'm staying 100% honest with you I don't know the motions of pak sao, lap sao we just called the drill sticky hands. I could look it up but I feel that would be fraudulent to some degree because it's a term that I never was taught. I don't know if this is a clearer way of saying it chasing hands is only when you throw a strike and miss your chasing your own hands trying to find contact. When your enemy throws a strike and you make contact with it he has feed you but if you step off of line and make him miss he is chasing his own hands you have evaded him. Sorry for any confusion.