Chasing Hands

[KPM]

Forgive me KPM, but tc101 is right. As much as I enjoy them, all the cool stuff in these demos, and in most WC chi sau demos as well, goes right out the window when an experienced fighter puts up some real resistence. In demos, even an old duffer like me can look great with some of my students. It's another thing when I go over to my friend's MMA class. Those guys don't play along.

.

Of course. See my comments above. But tell me you can't see how smooth and powerful Maul moves and think that he wouldn't be able to take care of himself in a fight? This is Silat/Kuntau at a high level. Many in the Silat world have said this. I think its pretty telling that people here are being so critical and don't see that.

[LFJ]

He just doesn't show it in these particular clips.

Uh huh. In which clips does he show it?

He didn't control the arm. He just circled it out of the way.

You don't understand the dynamics of what he is doing. I know it sounds cliché, but I guess you just have to feel it!

I can see the effect of it. The guy's arm swings down in a circle but his body is not affected, and the arm (that you assume may hold a knife) is not controlled with a grab of any sort. It's just swung out of the way.

Maul knows more about knife-fighting than most! I assure you he is well aware of any such possibilities!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XPrn...gJOL2hM2eM2Ax3

He didn't show a single knife defense. Any idiot can cut someone with a knife. He just does it fancily against demo dummies.

And again, there are plenty of self defense scenarios that don't involve an attacker "barreling in on you." Is that all you prepare for? How does your Chi Sao training work against an attacker "barreling in on you"?

You're right. I should also prepare for the guy with his feet glued to the floor who throws a single punch and pauses holding his arm out at me so I can respond with whatever I like. Those are the ones who present real danger and require extra fancy techniques.

[LFJ]

How's this one for controlling the limbs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB1Qe...gJOL2hM2eM2Ax3

You honestly think he's going to slip a punch to the inside and catch it in an armbar on his shoulder?

or this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt0X6...re=c4-overview


But I guess none of this is real either?

And I guess WWE is real too?!

Catch a guy's speeding punch out of the air, stick his arm between his legs, grab it at the back with the other hand, hook under his other arm, lift him up and do a backbreaker over your knee! All off a straight right.

[tc101]

Forgive me KPM, but tc101 is right. As much as I enjoy them, all the cool stuff in these demos, and in most WC chi sau demos as well, goes right out the window when an experienced fighter puts up some real resistence. In demos, even an old duffer like me can look great with some of my students. It's another thing when I go over to my friend's MMA class. Those guys don't play along.

On the other hand, TC, I don't think the concepts of using angling, off-lining, and balance disruption are bogus at all. They just express themselves differently in a realistic environment. The pro will allways be using angles, range, timing, and yes, even balance disruption, in subtle ways to keep his opponent at a disadvantage. You see it any time you see a good fighter dominate another through superior technique. But it still looks like a fight, not like a fantasy demo.

Yes many things like angling, balance disruption, and so forth are tactics that fighters use all the time. The difference is that fighters demo and teach what they are really doing and how they are really using those tactics when they spar/fight not making up unrealistic scenarios or unrealistic applications. When I see someone demo something in a unrealistic way my first thought is they are doing an unrealistic demo because they can't show a realistic way and they can't do that because they aren't training realistically and likely not even seeing anyone train realistically so they don't know better. They really have no idea how to fight and not just against experienced fighters.

[tc101]

Of course. See my comments above. But tell me you can't see how smooth and powerful Maul moves and think that he wouldn't be able to take care of himself in a fight? This is Silat/Kuntau at a high level. Many in the Silat world have said this. I think its pretty telling that people here are being so critical and don't see that.

Just look at what you use in making your judgment about Maul -- first that he moves smoothly and powerfully. Yes against a cooperative dummy that lets him.

From that you jump to the conclusion that he would be able to that in fighting. THAT is your mistake. That mistake comes from not training realistically because if you trained realistically you would know from personal experience and from seeing others training realistically that being able to do something well or even at all against someone not fighting back is NO INDICATION whatsoever that either you can do it or that it can even be done against someone really fighting you back.

Then you go on to say he is good because other Silat people say so. So other people who only do unrealistic stuff hold his unrealistic stuff in high regard. That you see is the whole thing.

Where is there any footage of Maul really sparring, really using his stuff against someone trying to beat him? As we both know it doesn't exist. If he did that sort of training he would know better. If you did that sort of training you would know better.

[KPM]

Classical Martial Arts:

Karate Bunkai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLCAChYOFs

Aikido Demo. No one questioned Uyeshiba’s ability to fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Sa0PLquFg

Jigoro Kano Demo’ing/teaching Judo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoFwE8pX2js

Small Circle Ju Jitsu Demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edOlfbkrpZ8

Tai Chi applications demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecjnoijaOyg

But wait! Their partners are just standing there letting them do it! They might have a knife in the other hand! No one is "barreling in on them!" None of these guys ever do realistic stuff!

[BPWT..]

Where is there any footage of Maul really sparring, really using his stuff against someone trying to beat him? As we both know it doesn't exist. If he did that sort of training he would know better. If you did that sort of training you would know better.

I have no idea if there's footage of Maul using his stuff against a resisting person, and of course what you see in his clips is material presented for his students to drill and work on. That said, he travels A LOT and is always giving seminars - they are well worth visiting as the man has very real skill IMO.

[even though he's working with students, most people at his classes/seminars are not complete newbies - lots of experienced martial artists attend, including some MMA guys - and they are usually left in no doubt that the man knows what he's talking about]

Regarding the blade work, it is worth noting that what he teaches has been taught and passed down through his family - and those older generations didn't just train for fun, they were actually using the art - real confrontations with blades. Maul also posted, quite recently, some interesting pics from decades ago of his family members sparring (unarmed) against other martial artists in the region.

Anyways, I'd thoroughly recommend people visiting him if he comes to your neck of the woods (esp. if you have an interest in weapons work).

[KPM]

From that you jump to the conclusion that he would be able to that in fighting. THAT is your mistake. That mistake comes from not training realistically because if you trained realistically you would know from personal experience and from seeing others training realistically that being able to do something well or even at all against someone not fighting back is NO INDICATION whatsoever that either you can do it or that it can even be done against someone really fighting you back.

You denounce the whole field of Classical Martial Arts, which is probably 80% of the martial arts out there. All hail the all-knowing tc101! Thank God we have you around to set us straight!

Then you go on to say he is good because other Silat people say so. So other people who only do unrealistic stuff hold his unrealistic stuff in high regard. That you see is the whole thing.

And of course no one throughout Indonesia or Malaysia for the last 150 years has known anything about REAL fighting!

Where is there any footage of Maul really sparring, really using his stuff against someone trying to beat him? As we both know it doesn't exist.

Most Classical Martial Arts are not organized or trained that way. But I've said that already. Could he do it? I'm sure he could! Is that part of the typical seminar where this kind of footage is shot? No it isn't.

[KPM]

I have no idea if there's footage of Maul using his stuff against a resisting person, and of course what you see in his clips is material presented for his students to drill and work on. That said, he travels A LOT and is always giving seminars - they are well worth visiting as the man has very real skill IMO.

[even though he's working with students, most people at his classes/seminars are not complete newbies - lots of experienced martial artists attend, including some MMA guys - and they are usually left in no doubt that the man knows what he's talking about]

Regarding the blade work, it is worth noting that what he teaches has been taught and passed down through his family - and those older generations didn't just train for fun, they were actually using the art - real confrontations with blades. Maul also posted, quite recently, some interesting pics from decades ago of his family members sparring (unarmed) against other martial artists in the region.

Anyways, I'd thoroughly recommend people visiting him if he comes to your neck of the woods (esp. if you have an interest in weapons work).

Thank you BPWT! Its nice to know that there is someone here that can recognize real skill when they see it!

[BPWT..]

Thank you BPWT! Its nice to know that there is someone here that can recognize real skill when they see it!

... and felt it...

[air]

Why do you need to cover your center if your opponent's hands will have no threaten to your center?

Chasing your opponents hands can be dangerous especially if they have fast hands.

I've never been in a dance fight (meaning, fighting with someone dancing around bobbing and weaving and stepping etc.) In practice I have.

In the few real fights I've been in, it's been because I had no way to talk myself out of the fight and my opponent attacked me. Generally speaking if you are a peaceful person the only person you will be fighting is someone attacking you.

In this situation, the person will literally be attacking you, therefor chasing that persons hands could be a critical error in self defense.

I am also assuming that my opponents hands are threatening me :-)

[LFJ]

Classical Martial Arts:

Karate Bunkai:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HrLCAChYOFs

Aikido Demo. No one questioned Uyeshiba’s ability to fight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30Sa0PLquFg

Jigoro Kano Demo’ing/teaching Judo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoFwE8pX2js

Small Circle Ju Jitsu Demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edOlfbkrpZ8

Tai Chi applications demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecjnoijaOyg

But wait! Their partners are just standing there letting them do it! They might have a knife in the other hand! No one is "barreling in on them!" None of these guys ever do realistic stuff!

So you can find bullsh!t sold in other classical arts. What's your point? It doesn't somehow clean yours of it. None of what these guys were doing, however, were near the same level of ridiculousness as what your guy did.

[KPM]

So you can find bullsh!t sold in other classical arts. What's your point? It doesn't somehow clean yours of it. None of what these guys were doing, however, were near the same level of ridiculousness as what your guy did.

So now you to are going to renounce all Classical Martial Arts? You've joined the ranks of the all-knowledgeable along with tc101? You're here to save us from the misguided meanderings of such past Classical Martial Artists as Morihei Uyeshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, and Wally Jay? Glad you guys have all the answers!

And I already stated my point here:
This is classical martial arts done very well. If you don't believe this has any basis in reality, then you must not believe that generations of Chinese Martial Art, Indonesian Penchak Silat, Karate, etc. have any basis in reality.

To which tc101 replied:
That is not classical martial arts DONE very well it is classical martial arts not done at all. There is no performance there is no DOING it against someone truly fighting back. That is just cooperative demo. It is pretend.

I posted the links to show that this IS how Classical Martial Arts are done, at least during one phase of training. But I guess you missed that. I guess that's what happens when you are more interested in being critical and arguing that having a real discussion.

[LFJ]

So now you to are going to renounce all Classical Martial Arts? You've joined the ranks of the all-knowledgeable along with tc101? You're here to save us from the misguided meanderings of such past Classical Martial Artists as Morihei Uyeshiba, Gichin Funakoshi, and Wally Jay? Glad you guys have all the answers!

Unrealistic training methods are unrealistic. Doesn't matter who does it or what other realistic things they might actually train. If you ever did any realistic training you'd know what we're driving at. It's clear you don't and haven't. That's why you're going to get milked by this guy to learn WWE moves.

[KPM]

Unrealistic training methods are unrealistic. Doesn't matter who does it or what other realistic things they might actually train. If you ever did any realistic training you'd know what we're driving at. It's clear you don't and haven't. That's why you're going to get milked by this guy to learn WWE moves.

You are so full of crap! CHI SAO IS NOT REALISTIC TRAINING! Yet is a large component of Wing Chun training. Wing Chun forms are not realistic training. Heck, they don't even simulate techniques applied in a real situation. But they are a large component of Wing Chun training. You have such a double standard and closed mind that it is becoming quite ridiculous!