Chasing Hands

[KPM]

To make it really simple:
Loi Lau Hoi Sung is how we deal with energy on the bridge - how to 'stick' when you have to to clear the lane of obstructions.
Lat Sau Jik Chung is when you no longer have to stick because LLHS has done it's job and the lane is open, so you hit - "No chi, hit".

But as has been pointed out here already, this doesn't really address those times when you DON'T want to hit. What about those times when you want to control or use a Kum Na response? Sticking strictly to the Kuen Kuit would make anything other than direct hitting up the center "chasing hands." I personally don't think its that simple.

[tc101]

If someone grabs you and slings you to the ground with a hip throw, isn't that controlling your balance and center of gravity?

Oh I forgot all about the rolling eyes bit. Are we talking wing chun here or is the hip throw a regular part of your wing chun?

You posted on another thread that you liked Sean's clips of his class sparring with their wing chun. Where was all the controlling of the opponent's balance and center of gravity on that clip?

[JPinAZ]

But as has been pointed out here already, this doesn't really address those times when you DON'T want to hit. What about those times when you want to control or use a Kum Na response? Sticking strictly to the Kuen Kuit would make anything other than direct hitting up the center "chasing hands." I personally don't think its that simple.

What you're talking is a small-precentage of times IMO. If someone's throwing a punch at me and trying to take my head off, I'm not typically too interested in kam na - I'm only interested in putting them down so they can't hit me anymore. But to answer your question (since you've asked it several times now on this thread), there are ways you can use kam na or tie someone up without chasing hands.

And I never said anything about sticking strictly to kuen kuit - strictly sticking goes against most of the kuit imo

[KPM]

Oh I forgot all about the rolling eyes bit. Are we talking wing chun here or is the hip throw a regular part of your wing chun?

You posted on another thread that you liked Sean's clips of his class sparring with their wing chun. Where was all the controlling of the opponent's balance and center of gravity on that clip?

You asked a general question, you got a general answer. In regards to Sean's clip, you don't think doing a Pak Sao that turns someone's punch off center is controlling their balance? You don't think stepping into someone and forcing them back is controlling their balance? You forgot the rolling eyes bit? I didn't forget the stupid leading question bit!

[LFJ]

'To chase' means 'to pursue in order to catch or catch up with', and the full saying is "jeui ying, bat jeui sau" (chase center of mass, don't chase hands). If you aren't chasing center (forward) but following hands (wherever), then you're "chasing hands". People often do this out of fear of being hit (wanting to stop everything) or an obsession with trying to control the opponent's limbs.

If I use a paak-sau to intercept a punch that may or may not be chasing hands. It depends on whether or not my energy is forwarding to the opponent's center or if it's just trying to control their hand. If the punch drops I shouldn't follow it to stick and control. My paak-sau should continue into a strike. It's intercepting a punch with a punch. Impossible to be hand-chasing because it is chasing center. If the punch disappears I still hit. If I'm chasing hands I will be caught dangling.

@1:08 in this video that was posted, I would call those first two actions wasted motions and hand-chasing. He's standing still and drawing the punches into himself. If the opponent gave real energy and barreled in with power he'd eat them. There'd be no second action to move off of. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRs-W5UYJEY

Another aspect of chasing hands is violating the 'chiu-ying' principle. Others have some sort of body rotation in their system, but when I look at it I see turning to face and follow the opponent's attack. That is another form of hand-chasing in my interpretation. If you aren't chiu-ying then you can't effectively jeui-ying and must recover position.

[LFJ]

In order to chase your opponent's center of mass, you still have to remove his arms away from your moving path so his arms won't give you any trouble.

You have to take your girl's clothes off before you can make love to her. If you call "make love to her as chase center of mass" then you should not call "take her clothes off as chase clothes". It's a full package deal and you can't have one without the other.

The striking path can be cleared without chasing hands.

[MightyB]

I decided to bring (copy) this over to this thread.

I like this guy cause he's Filipino and likes to make jokes...i'm sure he'd be pretty fun to hang out with.

around the 3:40 mark, "you're touching each others hands, it's comforting, it's rewarding..." ROFL

that made my day. I like how he includes humor.

[tc101]

You asked a general question, you got a general answer. In regards to Sean's clip, you don't think doing a Pak Sao that turns someone's punch off center is controlling their balance? You don't think stepping into someone and forcing them back is controlling their balance? You forgot the rolling eyes bit? I didn't forget the stupid leading question bit!

Sorry but I do not like the rolling eyes bit as it is condescending and sooo little schoolgirl in attitude. I just find it surprising that people who train martial arts and fight spend so much time rolling their eyes. In all my years in various boxing gyms I've never once seen the eye roll. But on the wing chun forum it seems to be the in thing. OK enough of my venting.

Here's the deal, stepping in and forcing someone back is not controlling their balance or their center of gravity. Someone can even physically push you around and you can still maintain your balance and center of gravity, and still be "set" to counter which they wouldn't be if their balance was taken. It is much more advisable to have realistic goals and objectives, things you can achieve much of the time, things you can readily pull off and so forth. Sort of like those people who talk about "blending" with an attacker, yes it sounds great only it is not going to happen most of the time so having that as your #1 go to plan is going to leave you mighty unhappy.

Can a person control an opponent's balance and COG? Sure. Momentarily and very infrequently. So to have your goal or objective to do that seems highly impractical since for most of the fight its not going to be there. It does not make much sense to say don't chase his hands really means control his balance and COG when you could just say control his balance and COG in the first place.

Yes I saw the pak sau turning the opponent in Sean's video and that just shows not the skill of the person using the pak sau but that the person on the receiving end has been very poorly trained or engrained with bad wing chun habits, like leaving his arm out there, swiveling at the hips in response to pressure, not maintaining facing, and so on.

[kung fu fighter]

Sorry but I do not like the rolling eyes bit as it is condescending and sooo little schoolgirl in attitude. I just find it surprising that people who train martial arts and fight spend so much time rolling their eyes. In all my years in various boxing gyms I've never once seen the eye roll. But on the wing chun forum it seems to be the in thing. OK enough of my venting.

Here's the deal, stepping in and forcing someone back is not controlling their balance or their center of gravity. Someone can even physically push you around and you can still maintain your balance and center of gravity, and still be "set" to counter which they wouldn't be if their balance was taken. It is much more advisable to have realistic goals and objectives, things you can achieve much of the time, things you can readily pull off and so forth. Sort of like those people who talk about "blending" with an attacker, yes it sounds great only it is not going to happen most of the time so having that as your #1 go to plan is going to leave you mighty unhappy.

Can a person control an opponent's balance and COG? Sure. Momentarily and very infrequently. So to have your goal or objective to do that seems highly impractical since for most of the fight its not going to be there. It does not make much sense to say don't chase his hands really means control his balance and COG when you could just say control his balance and COG in the first place.

Yes I saw the pak sau turning the opponent in Sean's video and that just shows not the skill of the person using the pak sau but that the person on the receiving end has been very poorly trained or engrained with bad wing chun habits, like leaving his arm out there, swiveling at the hips in response to pressure, not maintaining facing, and so on.

Controlling someone's center of gravity takes a very high degree of skill, which is attained through years of training, perhaps you haven't attained this level of skill as yet, so your perspective is understandable. I am guessing you are following the JKD philosphy of "if something don't work you thow it out", but the problem with this philosophy is that people don't spend enough time to develop the a particular skillset and then thow it out without completely understanding it because they can't make it work. Our society today wants instant gratification without putting in the work.

So far you've offered nothing but critism without giving any feedback as to what WCK skills or tools you use chi sao to sharpen and develop, so I can understand why Keith is rolling his eyes. Please enlighten us as to how you translate the skills developed of chi sao into a fight? for example are you deflecting and striking simultanously, straying directly in front of the opponent and trying to trap, chasing down the center with chain punching.


good video for this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xnXKLhLje4

[tc101]

Controlling someone's center of gravity takes a very high degree of skill, which is attained through years of training, perhaps you haven't attained this level of skill as yet, so your perspective is understandable.

Ah yes the old you have not obtained this level of skill yet routine. If it takes years and years of training to achieve it, then that means for years and years you will be getting the snot beat out of you every time you spar because you will be doing something that you cannot make work. What are you doing in the meantime if you are not controlling their center of gravity?

Where are the wing chun people who can control someone's center of gravity who are really fighting with them? Can you point me to a video of them?

On another thread you said you are training with pro level mma and thai fighters. OK, can we see a video of you doing this against them while sparring?

I am guessing thae JKD philosphy of "if something don't work you thow it out", but the problem with this philosophy is that people don't spend enough time to develop the a particular skillset and then thow it out without completely understanding it because they can't make it work. Our society today wants instant gratification without putting in the work.

I do not want instant gratification and I do want to chase unrealistic dreams either.

So far you've offered nothing but critism without giving any feedback as to what WCK skills or tools you use chi sao to sharpen and develop, so I can understand why Keith is rolling his eyes. Please enlighten us as to how you translate the skills developed of chi sao into a fight? for example are you deflecting and striking simultanously, straying directly in front of the opponent and trying to trap, chasing down the center with chain punching.


good video for this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xnXKLhLje4

How do you take the boxing skills developed in doing focus mitts and bag drills into sparring? Its the same thing. By training with a good fight trainer and going through the process of putting the pieces together for yourself through the hard work of sparring. There is no formula for it. No one can tell you how to do it. There is no shortcut.

[KPM]

Sorry but I do not like the rolling eyes bit as it is condescending and sooo little schoolgirl in attitude. I just find it surprising that people who train martial arts and fight spend so much time rolling their eyes. In all my years in various boxing gyms I've never once seen the eye roll. But on the wing chun forum it seems to be the in thing. OK enough of my venting.

---Its called an emoticon. Its used to substitute for tone or body language that would be apparent in a real face to face discussion. It means I think your are being a bit dense and not straight-forward in your meaning. Nothing "schoolgirl" about it. Sorry, but I don't like those questions that are aimed at trying to pin someone down on something without just coming out and saying what you mean. To me that's so passive-aggressive and kind of rude. Ok enough of my counter-venting! Oh wait, you probably don't like that one either!

Here's the deal, stepping in and forcing someone back is not controlling their balance or their center of gravity. Someone can even physically push you around and you can still maintain your balance and center of gravity, and still be "set" to counter which they wouldn't be if their balance was taken.

---Sure, that's always a possibility. But someone has to be pretty good to do that. I find it more likely that someone good at Wing Chun can step into someone else's center while turning them and making them step awkwardly to try and recover their balance....therefore controlling their balance...than it is that they will have footwork good enough to move away and recover before they are off-balanced. Good footwork is usually lacking in the typical street thug.


Can a person control an opponent's balance and COG? Sure. Momentarily and very infrequently.

---Sounds to me like you've never been exposed to good Wing Chun! If you are using Wing Chun to close with an attacker (I'm not talking about a trained MMA fighter here, but even if I was the point would still apply in many cases), intercept or trap his strikes, and you are not disrupting his balance or controlling his COG, then you aren't doing very good Wing Chun! Have you ever seen good Silat? Its all about off-balance the opponent and controlling their COG.

It does not make much sense to say don't chase his hands really means control his balance and COG when you could just say control his balance and COG in the first place.

---I agree with you here. I can actually do what a lot of people would call "chasing hands" and still be controlling the attacker's balance and COG. That's why I'm getting other people's ideas on "chasing hands."

[air]

When I think of "chasing hands" I think of a person who is literally chasing their opponents hands rather than covering their own center.

I also think of a person who chasing feints and flinches a lot.

[KPM]

Good point John! Here are some more examples of that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91V3x...gJOL2hM2eM2Ax3


So. Is Maul "chasing hands" here? Is Maul controlling his opponent's balance and COG here? Anyone see some strong similarities to good Wing Chun?

In anticipation of what tc101 is going to say.....no, this is not sparring. No, a lot of this wouldn't work against a trained MMA fighter in the ring. But this is not what SSBD was designed for. It is meant for the chance encounter with someone that wants to do you harm in passing. I would argue that Wing Chun is meant for the same thing, which is why it often has a poor showing against martial arts that were developed from the ground up for ring fighting/sparring.

BTW....I'm going to attend my first seminar with Maul Mornie in 2 weeks. I'm pretty pumped! :-) There are things from his Kuntao that remind me strongly of the Pin Sun Wing Chun I have studied.

[kung fu fighter]

From 2:00 to 2:13 into this movie clip, you can clearly see wing chun sticking structure can be used to control an opponents's center of gravity. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmA7UHDP03Y

also at 3:06 to 3:15 into this clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmA7UHDP03Y

[LFJ]

So. Is Maul "chasing hands" here?

More "playing with hands", because the demo dummies aren't doing anything.

Is Maul controlling his opponent's balance and COG here? Anyone see some strong similarities to good Wing Chun?

No and no. Each time he circles the demo dummy's arm for no apparent reason, they are both just standing there. Neither the demo dummy's balance nor COG is affected until the follow up action, and the demonstrator isn't using movement or positioning to protect himself while just standing in front of an opponent who could... throw another punch! But he doesn't have to, because for some reason the demo dummy's arms are dangling limp at his sides or just being held still as he waits to be hit. This kind of demonstration is useless.

It is meant for the chance encounter with someone that wants to do you harm in passing.

Someone who wants to do you harm with punches will not plant their feet in one spot and throw a single straight punch. They will barrel in punching continuously. These nifty techniques only work against demo dummies who let you do it. I don't want to be overly critical of a system I have no experience with, but from others videos of him, my honest opinion is that it's just flowery bullsh!t.