Chasing Hands

[KPM]

More "playing with hands", because the demo dummies aren't doing anything.

Because its a DEMO. Maul is teaching in these videos. So he is going slow and explaining things as he goes. In real application it is very fast.


No and no. Each time he circles the demo dummy's arm for no apparent reason, they are both just standing there.

Again, he is teaching as he goes. When you were learning Wing Chun, was everything shown at high speed and full intensity? And he is not circling the opponent's arm for no reason. The reason just may not be apparent to you. And you have to realize that Silat is a knife-based system. Even when empty-hand, the assumption is that the opponent has a knife. Some movements that seem like "chasing hands" to a Wing Chun guy against an unarmed opponent are meant to gain control of the attackers arm and therefore his weapon.


Neither the demo dummy's balance nor COG is affected until the follow up action,

Again, in real-time application the follow up action would be a split second after the entry. Like a Lop Da following a Bong Sao. Not much time for the opponent to do anything!

and the demonstrator isn't using movement or positioning to protect himself while just standing in front of an opponent who could... throw another punch!

Again, you are watching a teaching demo! Wasn't that clear in the video? Believe me he would be moving and positioning!


Someone who wants to do you harm with punches will not plant their feet in one spot and throw a single straight punch. They will barrel in punching continuously.

Ok. Believe whatever you want.

These nifty techniques only work against demo dummies who let you do it. I don't want to be overly critical of a system I have no experience with, but from others videos of him, my honest opinion is that it's just flowery bullsh!t.

Well, you have at least one thing right. You are being overly critical of a system you have no experience with!

[LFJ]

When you were learning Wing Chun, was everything shown at high speed and full intensity?

Controlling someone's balance and COG can be shown slowly. Technique demos should always be shown in less contrived scenarios. Otherwise why believe it will work? You'll just be a gullible student with flowers in your eyes.

In any case, you were asking if he controlled their balance and COG, and the answer is not with his wasted movements he didn't.

And you have to realize that Silat is a knife-based system. Even when empty-hand, the assumption is that the opponent has a knife.

All the more reason not to stand still within the guy's reach and play with one of his arms. If movement and positioning is part of the strategy as you say then he should have shown it. What he showed is dangerous and improbable.

Neither the demo dummy's balance nor COG is affected until the follow up action,

Again, in real-time application the follow up action would be a split second after the entry.

A one-two combo is also split second. And he didn't enter. He was standing away and circling the guy's arm off a single stationary punch. That kind of teaching demo is always useless. Anything can work.

[KPM]

A little more realistic speeds at the beginning of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKJSe...ature=youtu.be

[tc101]

Here's the deal, stepping in and forcing someone back is not controlling their balance or their center of gravity. Someone can even physically push you around and you can still maintain your balance and center of gravity, and still be "set" to counter which they wouldn't be if their balance was taken.

---Sure, that's always a possibility. But someone has to be pretty good to do that. I find it more likely that someone good at Wing Chun can step into someone else's center while turning them and making them step awkwardly to try and recover their balance....therefore controlling their balance...than it is that they will have footwork good enough to move away and recover before they are off-balanced. Good footwork is usually lacking in the typical street thug.

Maintaining your balance and staying set is not just a possibility but what is most likely and what is most natural. Stepping into someone's center who is fighting you and turning them and making them lose their balance is what is most unlikely in fighting. I am not saying that it can't happen because all kinds of stuff can happen just that doing that is extremely low percentage - why we rarely see it- and extremely high risk.

Can a person control an opponent's balance and COG? Sure. Momentarily and very infrequently.

---Sounds to me like you've never been exposed to good Wing Chun! If you are using Wing Chun to close with an attacker (I'm not talking about a trained MMA fighter here, but even if I was the point would still apply in many cases), intercept or trap his strikes, and you are not disrupting his balance or controlling his COG, then you aren't doing very good Wing Chun! Have you ever seen good Silat? Its all about off-balance the opponent and controlling their COG.

Sounds to me like you you've never been exposed to fighting because that simply doesn't happen in fighting except very infrequently.

It is always funny to me that people will SAY that if you are not doing wing chun the way they think you should -- not the way they are doing it mind you since they never really to do it like they think it should be done except in their internet boastings -- then you are not doing wing chun.

No I have not seen "good" wing chun or Silat people do this because NO ONE is really doing it. Like many things in wing chun.

I have seen good wrestling and good judo both of which involve TRYING to control their RESISTING opponents balance to create a MOMENTARY opening for a throw or takedown, and have seen how incredibly difficult that is to do, that it is impossible to maintain, and so forth. You can go to YouTube and see this for yourself.

But guess what you won't see on YouTube?

[KPM]

Controlling someone's balance and COG can be shown slowly. Technique demos should always be shown in less contrived scenarios. Otherwise why believe it will work? You'll just be a gullible student with flowers in your eyes.

What would be "less contrived"?

In any case, you were asking if he controlled their balance and COG, and the answer is not with his wasted movements he didn't.

The movements weren't wasted when you understand what he was doing.



All the more reason not to stand still within the guy's reach and play with one of his arms.

Wow. You just don't see it do you? The arm he is "playing with" would be the arm holding the knife! It is to gain control over the weapon. I said that already didn't I?



A one-two combo is also split second. And he didn't enter. He was standing away and circling the guy's arm off a single stationary punch. That kind of teaching demo is always useless. Anything can work.

The second he starts circling the guy's arm he has gained control of his balance and taken the steam out of any follow up punch. Most Chi Sao demos are useless to. Anything can work. Again, you are being overly critical of something you obviously don't understand. I was hoping people would see Maul's flow and power, but some things are just lost on people that don't want to see and don't understand what they are seeing.

[tc101]

A little more realistic speeds at the beginning of this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKJSe...ature=youtu.be

You don't really believe this has any basis in reality do you?

[LFJ]

What would be "less contrived"?

Have the person start attacking you and you do your thing, show how it works. In your "more realistic speed" clip the same problem is there. The only thing more realistic is indeed the speed. Demo dummy throws a single dummy punch and pauses waiting for the guy to work his magic. It's bullsh!t.

Wow. You just don't see it do you? The arm he is "playing with" would be the arm holding the knife! It is to gain control over the weapon.

He didn't control the arm. He just circled it out of the way. And you can never count on which is the knife hand. It can switch undetectably or another knife can be pulled instantly without you realizing it. Playing with the arm you think holds the knife is suicide.

The second he starts circling the guy's arm he has gained control of his balance and taken the steam out of any follow up punch.

No, he hasn't. He just circled the guy's arm out of the way. It doesn't affect their balance at all. It's all bullsh!t anyway when you consider the attacker will be barreling in on you throwing more than one committed punch. You will not stand still and circle their arm out of the way like that.

[KPM]

You don't really believe this has any basis in reality do you?

What? Kicking a guy in the cods? Punching them in the ribs to get a reaction? Sweeping their leg out from under them? This is classical martial arts done very well. If you don't believe this has any basis in reality, then you must not believe that generations of Chinese Martial Art, Indonesian Penchak Silat, Karate, etc. have any basis in reality. Oh wait...you probably don't..... since none of those are ring sports!!

[KPM]

Have the person start attacking you and you do your thing, show how it works. In your "more realistic speed" clip the same problem is there. The only thing more realistic is indeed the speed. Demo dummy throws a single dummy punch and pauses waiting for the guy to work his magic. It's bullsh!t.


Done properly, the attacker doesn't have a chance to do any more than that initial punch. If you don't do it quite properly and he gets off a second punch, then you flow right into the response to that. He just doesn't show it in these particular clips.


He didn't control the arm. He just circled it out of the way.

You don't understand the dynamics of what he is doing. I know it sounds cliché, but I guess you just have to feel it!

And you can never count on which is the knife hand. It can switch undetectably or another knife can be pulled instantly without you realizing it. Playing with the arm you think holds the knife is suicide.

Maul knows more about knife-fighting than most! I assure you he is well aware of any such possibilities!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XPrn...gJOL2hM2eM2Ax3



It's all bullsh!t anyway when you consider the attacker will be barreling in on you throwing more than one committed punch. You will not stand still and circle their arm out of the way like that.

If the attacker was "barreling in on him" Maul would have done something different but equally as effective. How many Wing Chun demo's at seminars are done against an opponent "barreling in on them"? Anyone "barreling in" on Maul would have found themselves contacting the ground VERY hard! That's not something you can do to your training partners over and over in a seminar. And again, there are plenty of self defense scenarios that don't involve an attacker "barreling in on you." Is that all you prepare for? How does your Chi Sao training work against an attacker "barreling in on you"?

[KPM]

How's this one for controlling the limbs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB1Qe...gJOL2hM2eM2Ax3

or this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt0X6...re=c4-overview


But I guess none of this is real either?

[tc101]

What? Kicking a guy in the cods? Punching them in the ribs to get a reaction? Sweeping their leg out from under them? This is classical martial arts done very well. If you don't believe this has any basis in reality, then you must not believe that generations of Chinese Martial Art, Indonesian Penchak Silat, Karate, etc. have any basis in reality. Oh wait...you probably don't..... since none of those are ring sports!!

That is not classical martial arts DONE very well it is classical martial arts not done at all. There is no performance there is no DOING it against someone truly fighting back. That is just cooperative demo. It is pretend.

This is the problem you see this unrealistic demonstration and believe their pitch that this is how things will work in fighting. So you think you can do things like step into your opponents center and turn them and control your opponents center of gravity and so forth. Why do you think we NEVER see these guys sparring and actually doing any of that in sparring? Because things do not work like that.

Ring sports came from traditional martial arts. There is nothing magical about a ring or mat other than the people using them are really going at it so they see how things really are and how they really work and how they really don't in fighting.

There are wing chun people getting into rings and on to mats and really going at it and seeing how things really work and how they really don't. Then there are wing chun people who do not get into rings or on to mats and so never do.

[tc101]

How's this one for controlling the limbs?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wB1Qe...gJOL2hM2eM2Ax3

or this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qt0X6...re=c4-overview


But I guess none of this is real either?

Do you not understand it is all cooperative demo?

[Grumblegeezer]

Do you not understand it is all cooperative demo?

Forgive me KPM, but tc101 is right. As much as I enjoy them, all the cool stuff in these demos, and in most WC chi sau demos as well, goes right out the window when an experienced fighter puts up some real resistence. In demos, even an old duffer like me can look great with some of my students. It's another thing when I go over to my friend's MMA class. Those guys don't play along.

On the other hand, TC, I don't think the concepts of using angling, off-lining, and balance disruption are bogus at all. They just express themselves differently in a realistic environment. The pro will allways be using angles, range, timing, and yes, even balance disruption, in subtle ways to keep his opponent at a disadvantage. You see it any time you see a good fighter dominate another through superior technique. But it still looks like a fight, not like a fantasy demo.

[KPM]

That is not classical martial arts DONE very well it is classical martial arts not done at all. There is no performance there is no DOING it against someone truly fighting back. That is just cooperative demo. It is pretend.

If you think that then you obviously don't know anything about classical martial arts. What Maul is doing is no different from a Judo Randori, a two-man exchange in Aikido, an application of classical Jiu Jitsu, a Karate "bunkai", etc.

[KPM]

Do you not understand it is all cooperative demo?

Of course I do! Do you not understand that you have to learn specific techniques and combo's this way so that you can then learn to mix and match and vary them in a real encounter? Will an exchange go off exactly as Maul shows it? Of course not! And he would be the first to point this out! You learn how to adapt to what the opponent gives you and vary your response accordingly. But you start by learning preset series of techniques and how to apply them before you learn to vary them. THIS is what classical martial arts do! This is no different than classical Karate or Kung Fu.