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Thread: Learning Wing Chun online?

  1. #1
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    Learning Wing Chun online?

    My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this and has anyone done so or, are they an effective addition to your training or do they serve no purpose and all instruction must come from your sifu?

    The reason I'm asking is that I teach Wing Chun in London and am simultaneously looking into the utility of internet-based resources in the learning of Wing Chun.

  2. #2
    [QUOTE=Matt_WCK;1166285]My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    IMO- NO.

    joy chaudhuri

  3. #3
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    Hello,

    While online and video resources can be valuable for reinforcing what one has or is learning, as well as for exposure to other methods, it is not a good resource, imho, for learning the art.

    The reason is simply that without actual interaction with someone better than you it is too easy to make mistakes. With WC, as with most arts, one needs to be exposed to the energy of the movements/techniques in order to learn and perfect them. Chi Sau is a great example; one can mimic the movements by watchin others, but without being taught the movements and feeling the proper energy exchanged it will never really be learned.

    Without someone with more experience to correct ones moves it is very easy to mistake one thing for another.

    Perhaps this would be a good reference for those in ones class to reinforce things already taught, but I am doubtful of the ability to use it to "teach" new material.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_WCK View Post
    My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this and has anyone done so or, are they an effective addition to your training or do they serve no purpose and all instruction must come from your sifu?

    The reason I'm asking is that I teach Wing Chun in London and am simultaneously looking into the utility of internet-based resources in the learning of Wing Chun.
    It'll work if all he following conditions are met.

    - You need to provide clear and detail (from different angles) online teaching movie clips.
    - Your teaching clips has to include "solo training", "partner training", "equipment training", ...
    - The student will need a training partner.
    - He will need to have a video camera.
    - He will need to send you his progress by movie clips.
    - You have to be able to comment on his movie clips.
    - You have to be able to answer all his questions "daily".

  5. #5
    Hey Matt,

    Instead of creating an online course to teach Wing Chun, why not create review material for your current students? This would work well because they can learn it at home and practice it in your class.

    -Edgar
    My Wing Chun blog

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    It'll work if all he following conditions are met.

    - You need to provide clear and detail (from different angles) online teaching movie clips.
    - Your teaching clips has to include "solo training", "partner training", "equipment training", ...
    - The student will need a training partner.
    - He will need to have a video camera.
    - He will need to send you his progress by movie clips.
    - You have to be able to comment on his movie clips.
    - You have to be able to answer all his questions "daily".
    YouKnowWho,

    Do you honestly believe you can learn via video/online training?

    How do you think a person who trains online would fair when comparing skills with someone who trained with a Sifu or Sihing directly?

    There are many "Distance Learning Courses" available for a variety of different arts. Some better than others. One thing all seem to have in common is to require at least some hands on training every few months in order to do a detailed review of what has been learned. I feel that the online or distance courses are best used by those who already have a strong foundation on which to build, even if that foundation is not Wing Chun.

    I look at it like this;

    Take learning a musical instrument. Anyone may be able to play the notes or mimic the performance of a master. But have the two play side by side and the differences will be clear. There is more to music than playing notes and there is more to Wing Chun and other Martial Arts than copying the movements of others.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Do you honestly believe you can learn via video/online training?
    If an instructor gives you (general YOU) enough detail such as:

    - left hand control right arm,
    - right hand push upper body,
    - right leg kick leading leg off the ground,

    do you think you can learn the "front cut(Osoto Gari)" with clip like this? If you have problem to learn then what will that be?

    http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima.../osotogari.htm

    One day my teacher told me a story that he challenged a Judo master in Beijing "东郊民巷(Dong Jiao Min Xiang) - foreign territory":

    "I used my knee to strike at his upper inside leg. When he moves his leg back, I hook his other leg".

    He had never shown me that move in person. I don't know how the footwork work. I don't even know how the hands should be coordinated with the legs. With just "common sense" and "imagination", I could even learn that technique from his story.

    IMO, you need to have the ability to learn anyway you can, and not just from your teacher's "spoon feeding". The movie clip is much more than you need.

    I know we are talking about WC here. But if you can learn "throwing art" online, I don't see any reason that you can't learn "striking art" the same way.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-08-2012 at 01:14 PM.

  8. #8
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    The big problem with trying to learn from that clip is it doesn't explain the Kazushi, and if you haven't got that, you're the one who's going to be thrown.
    "The man who stands for nothing is likely to fall for anything"
    www.swindonkungfu.co.uk

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    do you think you can learn the "front cut(Osoto Gari)" with clip like this? If you have problem to learn then what will that be?

    http://www.judoinfo.com/images/anima.../osotogari.htm

    I know we are talking about WC here. But if you can learn "throwing art" on line, I don't see any reason that you can't learn "striking art" online.
    So, using your clip as an example:
    1. What are the specific energies being applied? In how many directions are you actually applying force?
    2. In what manner are you disrputing your opponents blance?
    3. Do you "throw" the opponent over the leg or does he "fall" over it? (Look close so as to not just assume the throw is caused by the kickback of the leg....or is it? )
    4. In what way do you insure the opponent does not take you down with him?

    I am sure I could come up with other questions but these are off the top of my head. The danger of learning from anything other than a senior is that you often miss the subtlities and tend to relay on muscle to power your way through things.

    A good Judoka will understand the angles and be taught to break the eight directions. So, please explain to me what those eight directions are or show me that I have no clue as to throwing or Judo as an example. And no, I did not learn Judo through books or video but by learning from a qualified instructor. Albeit quite a number of years ago, prior to my learning Wing Chun as a matter of fact.

    You can mimic the movements and perhaps be able to apply them against someone of no real skill, the popular scrubs.........but against anyone with any formal training, the self taught and video warrior would not fare so well, imho.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ben Gash View Post
    The big problem with trying to learn from that clip is it doesn't explain the Kazushi, and if you haven't got that, you're the one who's going to be thrown.
    Not be a stickler for details but I believe you are referring to "kuzushi"
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    What are the specific energies being applied? In how many directions are you actually applying force?
    This question may be too "abstract" to me. I know some WC guys like to talk about "snake engine" and "6DFV". To me, whether you can knock/throw down your opponent or not, that's all I care about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    In what manner are you disrputing your opponents blance?
    This is why the training partner is important. If you try this move with your training partner, it's not hard to figure out that you can destroy your opponent's balance by:

    - push his head down and kick his leg up.
    - block his leg and run him down.
    - twist his leg and crush his body structure.
    - ...

    As long as you can "move your opponent's center of gravity to be outside of his base" (defined by his feet position), you can just let the gravity to do the rest. Of course the teacher will need to provide this information as well.

    http://img714.imageshack.us/img714/2850/balancebase.jpg

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    [*]In what way do you insure the opponent does not take you down with him?
    You may prefer the "throat hold" or "cross lapel hold" to execute your "front cut" instead. When your opponent pulls you down, you can "smash" his head to the ground. You will figure that out quickly with your training partner. This is why the training partner is "extreamly" important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    You can mimic the movements and perhaps be able to apply them against someone of no real skill, the popular scrubs.........but against anyone with any formal training, the self taught and video warrior would not fare so well, imho.
    Agree with you on this. This is why the "foundation training" should also be part of the online training. If you are smart, you can learn a lot online. If you are not, you may not even belong to the MA world in the first place.

    The online training is not perfect, but it's "better than nothing". To have "some" is still bettern than to have "none".
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-08-2012 at 02:04 PM.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_WCK View Post
    My question is: can you effectively learn Wing Chun using internet resources like youtube, internet articles and forums such as this and has anyone done so or, are they an effective addition to your training or do they serve no purpose and all instruction must come from your sifu?

    The reason I'm asking is that I teach Wing Chun in London and am simultaneously looking into the utility of internet-based resources in the learning of Wing Chun.
    One cannot learn VT from Internet. While the internet can be used [judiciously] as a resource VT is hands-on experience. I would imagine the same would apply to any fighting art.
    Last edited by trubblman; 04-09-2012 at 05:54 AM.

  13. #13
    As has been mentioned, you can supplement your formal training with knowlege from any and all sources...the sticky is, can you be objective in your acceptence of the info? You tube is a great opportunity to see what everyone is doing, and to observe how people really fight in actual combat caught on cam. Also, there are many 'classic' martial arts training films from the 80s, 70s and back that where greatly sought after at the time and now can be seen by everyone. In anthropological sense, these old films are great comparative study, for 'purity' since many ving tsun houses have cross pollinated now or changed.
    "Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.

  14. #14
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    You can learn ANYTHING online.
    How WELL, that is the question eh?

    If a person has a base core, a solid point of reference AND some training partners that are experienced too, yes they can.
    Attending seminars will help too.
    BUT that is ONLY if there is a solid point of reference, a solid core to work from.
    Learning BJJ BASICS online when you have years in Judo for example.
    Learning Shotokan karate online when you have years in TKD for example.
    Learning CLF when you have years in Hung Kuen.
    Etc...
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #15
    IMO you can learn things from video resources, but it's harder. I don't think it's very easy to do that starting from scratch though. One of the best online/video resources I've seen from scratch are the Gracie Combatives / Gracie University. They have 36 lessons covering beginner to blue belt, and a testing process for sending in a video for testing for blue belt. Of course this is controversial and the "feel" portion is what is so much more difficult to learn with that media. The blue belts they turn out aren't "real" either. What I mean by this is I have traveled to a local "Gracie garage" and trained with members there. They are easily overwhelmed by an opponent with good connected basic ground fundamentals. In other words, there are things live hands on training teaches you that you can't learn without it. However, as the Combatives idea shows, it's better to train from a video than not to train at all.

    For example, the osoto gari example above. You could take the instruction from the online link and start to learn the rough edges of the throw. With a partner and experimentation you may learn a few more details. However, you wouldn't even know how to train to get better at the throw. You wouldn't know the 3 phases of the throw (kuzushi/unbalancing, entry, finish). You wouldn't know how to seperate out exercises to train those 3 phases. What equipment is necessary to train them (kimonos, crash pad, flooring requirements)? You wouldn't get to the advanced details, like punching the sleeve arm out at a 45 degree angle, loading up the weight in the lapel grip elbow forcing the opponent's weight onto his near leg, the proper angle of forward lean you need on entry to prevent being countered, the extension thru the throw to complete it and land, the adjustments once hitting the ground and follow-on chained attacks. You wouldn't know the counter throw to this throw or the grip fighting that sets it up. You wouldn't have a feel for building speed in your entry to the throw and the feel for how to time your entry to beat your opponent's counter entry. In other words, you wouldn't know about 80% of the details that make the difference in making the throw work versus a resisting opponent or not. So in a usage scenario, you wouldn't know the details necessary to make this throw work on a bouncer in a club, for example, versus getting stuffed and eating pavement.

    Oh, and the better you are, the easier it is to pick up things from video. Many advanced practitioners of arts watch competition video, as opposed to instructional.

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