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Thread: VT and a visiting MMA school

  1. #1

    Thumbs up VT and a visiting MMA school

    Really nice clip of Sean's PBVT group working out with some MMA guys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o83Gvf-YsWM

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Really nice clip of Sean's PBVT group working out with some MMA guys

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o83Gvf-YsWM
    Great clip. Nice to see them mixing it up and yet maintaining solid WC technique and principles.
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    Great clip. Nice to see them mixing it up and yet maintaining solid WC technique and principles.
    Yes! Good clip! Although, I have to admit sometimes I wasn't sure which guy was Wing Chun, until he threw a few chain punches.

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    Hey guys,
    Just a little background to the video.
    My students in the video sparring have around 4 and 5 years of experience, and the MMA guys around 5 and 6, so almost even there.

    The MMA school is run by a friend of mine who is a former French Greco-Roman champion, and he helped me host a ground-fighting seminar in his school with Tim Cartmell two years ago, which started off an occasional exchange between our schools. Our several exchanges have always been great, with the emphasis on learning together...something I have yet to see happen in the WC world over here (I've invited other WC teachers in town for sparring sessions but they let me know in no uncertain terms that they were not interested).

    My students definitely had trouble gauging the distance with people who 1) have decent long-range attacks and 2) are decent at grappling.

    But they are getting better at it - getting better at putting the pressure on and using angles intelligently. And gaining grappling and ground experience along the way (which I have always said is necessary).

    What worked: using the oblique kick to keep distance and to check kicks, using pak da (even the MMA guys ended up using it to their advantage), lan sau, jum sau and punch....actually everything worked when combined with the right footwork and timing (note: not all the action is seen in this clip, I'll post more soon)

    Anyway, the sparring in the clip is nothing special, but I do think it is controlled and intelligent, and that's what counts...learning and improving. I'll be posting more sparring clips in the future, and I'm 100 per cent sure that we'll improvement.

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    Good stuff Sean! I do think a big problem in most Wing Chun is "in-breeding." Too many schools only train against other guys doing Wing Chun. They spend long hours training all kinds of cool things in Chi Sao....against another guy doing Wing Chun! Most of those things just aren't going to happen in a real exchange when the other guy doesn't know Wing Chun. So props to you for mixing it up with other groups!

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean66 View Post
    My students definitely had trouble gauging the distance with people who 1) have decent long-range attacks and 2) are decent at grappling.
    That was also my assessment! Good to see WCK guys working out with MMA guys to improve together. This reminds me of my san shou days lol. when I sparred with some pro MMA friends to work on my timing and distancing.

  8. #8
    Looked through the video. It's got good stuff but a lot of room for improvement.

    1. Good training use of equipment and use of mma training partners - the first minute of the video was all compliant back and forth, but I saw the use of focus mitts and thai pads. I don't know how much value there is in taking a guy all the way down with focus mitts, but training going under a punch for the entry is good. Real live targets are good.

    2. Space - really doesn't work well for what you're doing. Most wing chun studios I see are like this - hard floors and lots of mirrors. It's hard to go live without breaking glass, and all the takedowns were pretty much pick the guy up and set them down as you can't go any harder than that. There's not enough space for unrestricted movement. You guys would be better off training some of this kind of stuff in a park as I really don't see most wing chun studios converting over to mats on the floor and walls or cage walls to facilitate contact rounds. Wing chun people mostly like to look at themselves in the mirror - they don't like to spar so much - you can tell by their studios.

    Anyway good start on the stuff. Refine work with focus mitts and thai pads so that you are really starting to build genuine attributes - speed and power. change footwork up so that it's not all charge in chain punch the pads but that you keep people's feet moving in all directions while learning to acquire and strike targets. Keep building it. This is the right path. You are just at the beginning. Work 20 minutes of free movement 3 minute sparring rounds into your everyday schedule - like 5 rounds, with 1 minute rest between rounds. Works good for towards the end of class. Keep training with the mma guys you found and doing rounds.

  9. #9
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    Hi Wayfaring,
    Thanks for your feedback! I really appreciate the constructive criticism.

    I'm really trying to integrate more work with the focus mitts and thai pads, both to isolate certain techniques in more compliant drills and to develop more dynamic drills that force the students to work on footwork and targeting, as you aptly put it.

    I've also tried to work on combination striking/grappling drills with the focus mitts. Hence the slip under the punch to either "t up" or take the back, and the safe clinch to hip throw drill. Gets my guys used to the almost inevitable grappling that takes place in our sparring sessions with our MMA friends.

    We've also been working on some standard single-leg takedowns and their defenses....but as you stated, the space is really inhibiting. It is really not the right environment for that type of work and sparring. Luckily, we have the use of an enormous tatami once a week on Saturday's, and it's during these sessions that we work on takedowns, throwing and ground fighting.

    Thanks for the encouragement :-)

  10. #10
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    Watched the clip and like wayfaring I like the use of the Thai and boxing pads, the entry to clinch work was nice although im not sure bobbing and weaving is classical wing chun
    I felt the guys were holding their hands a bit low and a bit too far infront of themselves when they were light MMA sparring, as soon as the headgear came out the hands tightened up and came close to the head, maybe work on this so a tighter guard is more natural even when light sparring and bad habits arenít ingrained
    I was going to say get some mats for the love of god but its good you have use of a matted area at least once a week
    Keeping the fight out of the clinch and off the floor is hard, especially for a close range art like wing chun (as soon as you are in trapping range it blows right into the clinch) what our guys work on when they want to keep it standing (and bare in mind this is MMA/thai strikers) is lateral movement, and lots of straight power shots
    Make them respnd to your movement and have to change their angle all the time (which makes it harder to set the shot up, and make them pay for coming in close with straight fast hard hits.
    Lower the stance to make the double a harder shot and sprawling easier, and if the fight does hit the clinch keep the elbows tight so they cant get the underhooks, frame off them and circle out
    But some nice work which will get better as you spar more

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sean66 View Post
    Hi Wayfaring,
    Thanks for your feedback! I really appreciate the constructive criticism.

    I'm really trying to integrate more work with the focus mitts and thai pads, both to isolate certain techniques in more compliant drills and to develop more dynamic drills that force the students to work on footwork and targeting, as you aptly put it.

    I've also tried to work on combination striking/grappling drills with the focus mitts. Hence the slip under the punch to either "t up" or take the back, and the safe clinch to hip throw drill. Gets my guys used to the almost inevitable grappling that takes place in our sparring sessions with our MMA friends.

    We've also been working on some standard single-leg takedowns and their defenses....but as you stated, the space is really inhibiting. It is really not the right environment for that type of work and sparring. Luckily, we have the use of an enormous tatami once a week on Saturday's, and it's during these sessions that we work on takedowns, throwing and ground fighting.

    Thanks for the encouragement :-)
    Sure man. Actually from my perspective the #1 key to this from my recent observations is time. Consistent live work like this from what I've seen takes like around between a year and two years after you implement it, and then you turn a corner and people start to get the fight habits ingrained into their normal reactions so they are more automatic.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Watched the clip and like wayfaring I like the use of the Thai and boxing pads, the entry to clinch work was nice although im not sure bobbing and weaving is classical wing chun
    Some people see wing chun as an open system that can change and evolve while maintaining its identity. I understand that the late Sum Nung modified his chum kiu form to incorporate a bob/weave which he found was a useful tool for getting inside against a boxer.

  13. #13
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    We really don't practice a whole lot of bobbing and weaving, as it can get dangerous when kicking and kneeing become part of the game.

    Slipping punches, however, I find very useful. When kept "tight" it can really set up a lot of very direct counters.
    And ducking under a big haymaker or overhand right to take the back is both very practical and natural.

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