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Thread: Who Switched from External to Internal Martial Arts and Why?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    Have you trained with us at some point?
    Dear David,

    Why do I sense that you're about to attempt to entangle me in one of the many ways your cult-ish group uses language games to distract yourself from reality? I haven't trained with you - I had already been exposed to wushu of exceptional quality, from Mainland China, long before I became aware of your rather worrying group. So you could say that I was immunised. But before you ask, I have been to one of your classes to ask the instructor why you are all so obnoxious about your clearly rather ridiculously low level.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Health is great! Some deception is OK when people fall for it as they have no choice but it is accepted, at least by the believer!
    I, on the other hand, go bat sh&t and ape sh&t when I see those type of parlour tricks since they do nothing to make the art, a feasible method for self discovery and understanding.
    This is the ultimate debasement of an art. Just another foolish view so it is my deception only! I can't believe people fall for this stuff, really

  3. #18
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    I started my training as a child in Judo and Karate (goju ryu)

    I've been doing kung fu for the past 19 years..

    I started out more as an external martial artist. Over the years and through a lot of study with Tai Chi, I would say I have
    a little bit of external with a lot of internal in my martial art.
    Finally Got my Sifu to share our Ngo Dac Na systematized training online.

    You can visit us on Youtube


    You can also find us at EnterShaolin.com

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by taiji24 View Post
    Just curious - Have you looked at Taiji Mantis after learning Yang Style Taiji? (I don't know anything about Taiji Mantis.)
    The two are not related. My friend, Will Willams, who studies Taiji Mantis under Zhou Zhendong in Yantai, China has this to say about Taiji Mantis on his website:

    The name Taiji has nothing to do with the style Taiji Quan, it is merely a nod at the philosophical principles of Yin and Yang which are present in every aspect of the style.

    http://www.monkeystealspeach.co.uk/taiji-mantis.php

    However, I have studied Taiji Meihua Mantis forms under three instructors.
    Richard A. Tolson
    https://www.patreon.com/mantismastersacademy

    There are two types of Chinese martial artists. Those who can fight and those who should be teaching dance or yoga!

    53 years of training, 43 years of teaching and still aiming for perfection!

    Recovering Forms Junkie! Even my twelve step program has four roads!

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Dear David,

    Why do I sense that you're about to attempt to entangle me in one of the many ways your cult-ish group uses language games to distract yourself from reality? I haven't trained with you - I had already been exposed to wushu of exceptional quality, from Mainland China, long before I became aware of your rather worrying group. So you could say that I was immunised. But before you ask, I have been to one of your classes to ask the instructor why you are all so obnoxious about your clearly rather ridiculously low level.
    Because I clearly was trying to entangle you ^_^ It was a simple and direct question really. If you haven't sparred with us, or received our training and practiced it for some time, you really can't judge us. I've seen the benefits of my training first hand both in my personal life and when training with fighters of other systems.

    The whole cult/not-a-cult thing has been debated to death really. I am free to explore other systems/styles/ways of thinking, we're not so rigid as you might think.

    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    Because I clearly was trying to entangle you ^_^ It was a simple and direct question really. If you haven't sparred with us, or received our training and practiced it for some time, you really can't judge us.
    As I've already mentioned, I have actually been to your school, to ask in person why you're all so obnoxious about your club system, which, from the outside, appears to be comically low level.

    If you're now telling me that I can't possibly see why it's so great until I'm actually brainwashed into its BS, to the degree that produces threads like this:

    http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sho...ect-the-Master

    Then yes, pal, I can see that's probably true - I would probably have to be brainwashed before I began to see the merits of this fairly obvious hoax. As it is, although I'm personally very low level in the great scheme of things, I know more about Chinese wushu than Wong Kiew Kit ever will, so I'm amply situated to judge him, and you, and your group.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    I've seen the benefits of my training first hand both in my personal life and when training with fighters of other systems.
    That's only true because it's a lie, I'm sorry to say. Those 'fighters' of other systems were no such thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    The whole cult/not-a-cult thing has been debated to death really. I am free to explore other systems/styles/ways of thinking, we're not so rigid as you might think.
    I don't really think it's a cult as such - although i think at the higer organisational levels it probably is. I think your group is just 'concerning', at your level - and also laughable, at your level. Last time I checked, I'm free to think that too.
    Last edited by Miqi; 02-18-2014 at 03:19 PM.

  7. #22
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    By the way, while we're on the subject of authentic wushu, you do realise that Wong Kiew Kit invented his own taiji after reading a basic book on Yang taiji, right? Which your group no pretends is possible because of his immensely high level - which somehow makes what he's invented more 'authhentic' than actual lineage holders' taiji, lmao. That's some cultish double think right there. Not that being a lineage holder means anything anyway - just, wow, it's not much of a basis for being obnoxious about 'authenticity', lol.

  8. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    As I've already mentioned, I have actually been to your school, to ask in person why you're all so obnoxious about your club system, which, from the outside, appears to be comically low level.

    If you're now telling me that I can't possibly see why it's so great until I'm actually brainwashed into its BS, to the degree that produces threads like this:

    http://www.wongkiewkit.com/forum/sho...ect-the-Master

    Then yes, pal, I can see that's probably true - I would probably have to be brainwashed before I began to see the merits of this fairly obvious hoax. As it is, although I'm personally very low level in the great scheme of things, I know more about Chinese wushu than Wong Kiew Kit ever will, so I'm amply situated to judge him, and you, and your group.



    That's only true because it's a lie, I'm sorry to say. Those 'fighters' of other systems were no such thing.



    I don't really think it's a cult as such - although i think at the higer organisational levels it probably is. I think your group is just 'concerning', at your level - and also laughable, at your level. Last time I checked, I'm free to think that too.
    1. What pray tell is so fundamentally wrong with respecting your Sifu, and following their instructions?

    2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed? Though I am glad you have learned so much you can judge another system without practicing it or with it's practitioners.

    3. I am impressed, you must have developed great powers of intuition to see truth in a situation from a forum post without evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    By the way, while we're on the subject of authentic wushu, you do realise that Wong Kiew Kit invented his own taiji after reading a basic book on Yang taiji, right? Which your group no pretends is possible because of his immensely high level - which somehow makes what he's invented more 'authhentic' than actual lineage holders' taiji, lmao. That's some cultish double think right there. Not that being a lineage holder means anything anyway - just, wow, it's not much of a basis for being obnoxious about 'authenticity', lol.
    4. Yes I did know that, and I also know that it is highly effective in all the ways taijiquan should be. It is worth noting that one of our instructors is a student of Yang Taijiquan and sees benefit in both. Another of our instructors practices Chen Taijiquan and sees benefit in both. We do unabashedly claim to have high level arts, because without fail we get high level benefits. It would be a simple matter to solve with for example three star hitting to see which of us has more force, but over the internet without options for direct experience a conversation like this can just go on and on and on and on ad infinitum.

    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    1. What pray tell is so fundamentally wrong with respecting your Sifu, and following their instructions?
    Well, I would suggest that a certain degree of sensible perspective in regards to a 'leader' is healthy, when one joins a group of any kind. I'm suspecting that this is a lesson you will have to learn the hard way, like most of the rest of us. However, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with respecting your teacher - but it might be concerning if that respect becomes a blindness, or a blind obedience.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    2. How is learning a system and practicing it being brainwashed?
    Interesting question. 'Brainwashed' is a very patronising and over-used term. I think that you genuinely 'want' to believe that you are practicing genuine Chinese wushu, and you genuinely want to believe that there is an easy way, and you genuinely want to believe in the hoax - that's how hoaxes work. As part of that, you will spend some time caught up in the group think, until you have your reality checked for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    Though I am glad you have learned so much you can judge another system without practicing it or with it's practitioners.
    You don't really mean that you're glad. However, as I know a great deal more about wushu than you, it's not really a big deal. As for practicing 'with' people from your system, let me reiterate for the third time that I took your club up on its invitation for people who didn't believe their obnoxious claims to come down to one of their classes. I did so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    3. I am impressed, you must have developed great powers of intuition to see truth in a situation from a forum post without evidence.

    Sadly, what goes on in your group is, far from being some great mystery, just a rather sad cliche. No great insight required - just a great deal more experience than you.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    4. Yes I did know that, and I also know that it is highly effective in all the ways taijiquan should be.
    Lie. However, you have at least admitted that your so called taiji is just some nonsense that Wong Kiew Fraud made up out of a book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    It is worth noting that one of our instructors is a student of Yang Taijiquan and sees benfit in both. Another of our instructors practices Chen Taijiquan and sees benefit in both.
    Erm, there is no such thing as Shaolin Wah Nam taiji - it's some rubbish your fraud teacher cobbled together from a book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    We do unabashedly claim to have high level arts, because without fail we get high level benefits. It would be a simple matter to solve with for example three star hitting to see which of us has more force,
    Lol.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    but over the internet without options for direct experience a conversation like this can just go on and on and on and on ad infinitum.
    Yes, that's why I went down to one of your classes, to experience the greatness of Shaolin Wah Nam in person. I may have mentioned this.
    Last edited by Miqi; 02-18-2014 at 05:08 PM.

  10. #25
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    There's an interesting idea in the sociology of networks that says that innovation within a group is often rare, because people tend to harmonise their group outlook. Innovation tends to come from ideas or chance encounters with external people, events or sources of information. Any group which is actively discouraging learning from external sources must therefore be subject to the suspicion that it's trying to protect its group outlook. I suppose all martial arts groups are a bit like this.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Well, I would suggest that a certain degree of sensible perspective in regards to a 'leader' is healthy, when one joins a group of any kind. I'm suspecting that this is a lesson you will have to learn the hard way, like most of the rest of us. However, there is nothing fundamentally wrong with respecting your teacher - but it might be concerning if that respect becomes a blindness, or a blind obedience.



    Interesting question. 'Brainwashed' is a very patronising and over-used term. I think that you genuinely 'want' to believe that you are practicing genuine Chinese wushu, and you genuinely want to believe that there is an easy way, and you genuinely want to believe in the hoax - that's how hoaxes work. As part of that, you will spend some time caught up in the group think, until you have your reality checked for you.



    You don't really mean that you're glad. However, as I know a great deal more about wushu than you, it's not really a big deal. As for practicing 'with' people from your system, let me reiterate for the third time that I took your club up on its invitation for people who didn't believe their obnoxious claims to come down to one of their classes. I did so.




    Sadly, what goes on in your group is, far from being some great mystery, just a rather sad cliche. No great insight required - just a great deal more experience than you.




    Lie. However, you have at least admitted that your so called taiji is just some nonsense that Wong Kiew Fraud made up out of a book.



    Erm, there is no such thing as Shaolin Wah Nam taiji - it's some rubbish your fraud teacher cobbled together from a book.



    Lol.



    Yes, that's why I went down to one of your classes, to experience the greatness of Shaolin Wah Nam in person. I may have mentioned this.
    Personally I just kept an open mind when I first started learning, it was my experiences that led me to sticking around. There was never any blindness involved.

    The thought that there might be an easy way is nice, I haven't found it yet though. I'm working towards an hour in horse stance at the moment. If that is something you consider easy then I am amazed.

    Ok, so you visited a class. I guess it just wasn't for you then, nothing wrong with that really. You claim that you know much more about "Wushu" (Please define, I know the term to mean "Performance with no martial applicability" like what is generally seen at the shaolin temple these days) I can say that right back, that I know more about kung fu than you. Either direction, the words themselves are meaningless.

    My Sigung is most definitely not a fraud, I have met the man and experienced his skill first hand.

    The Taiji he created is not rubbish, it is quite a good system. You quite literally put words in my mouth, I never said it was a nonesense or fraudulent (this conversation is fun so far, "yes. no. yes. no. yes. no." ^_^)


    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    There's an interesting idea in the sociology of networks that says that innovation within a group is often rare, because people tend to harmonise their group outlook. Innovation tends to come from ideas or chance encounters with external people, events or sources of information. Any group which is actively discouraging learning from external sources must therefore be subject to the suspicion that it's trying to protect its group outlook. I suppose all martial arts groups are a bit like this.
    My Sifu encuraged me to study at an Ip Man lineage wing chun school I found, mainly for the sensitivity gained through chi sau. I still currently attend this school, and I find it to be an excellent training, with excellent teachers, and it is a system I plan on practicing for the rest of my life along with my shaolinquan.

    "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win."
    - Sun Tzu

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    Personally I just kept an open mind when I first started learning, it was my experiences that led me to sticking around. There was never any blindness involved.
    David, if you're happy to claim things such as that you have authentic lineage taiji, AND at the same time admit that your teacher just made up his taiji from a book, then at some point I suspect you're going to have to decide in your own heart if you're really being honest with yourself and others. For me, Shaolin Wah Nam is just the martial arts system your brother invented when he was 12 combined with the business plan of Scientology.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    The thought that there might be an easy way is nice, I haven't found it yet though. I'm working towards an hour in horse stance at the moment. If that is something you consider easy then I am amazed.
    Actually, I just find it trivial. Anyway, if the horse stance looks like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQGuPxXj1I0 - than that's not really a big deal, is it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    Ok, so you visited a class. I guess it just wasn't for you then, nothing wrong with that really.
    David, as I think you understand clearly enough, I didn't go down to one of your classes to 'try' it - as I've already told you, I went down and asked the instructor, directly, why your school is so obnoxious about its clearly comically low level. I did this following a published invitation from your school to do so. You understand precisely what I'm telling you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    You claim that you know much more about "Wushu" (Please define, I know the term to mean "Performance with no martial applicability"
    Well that's a good example of your ignorance, right there. There again, I understand 'Shaolin' to mean 'having some connection to Shaolin', lol - which you obviously don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    like what is generally seen at the shaolin temple these days) I can say that right back, that I know more about kung fu than you. Either direction, the words themselves are meaningless.
    What you mean by 'know about kung fu' is just that you compare things to your own school, and if they don't look the same, then they aren't kung fu. Most of us have been at that stage of development. It'll just take some kind of reality check to make you see that that's not quite the way to assess it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post
    My Sigung is most definitely not a fraud, I have met the man and experienced his skill first hand.
    Yes, but who are you to judge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    The Taiji he created is not rubbish, it is quite a good system. You quite literally put words in my mouth, I never said it was a nonesense or fraudulent (this conversation is fun so far, "yes. no. yes. no. yes. no." ^_^)
    Well, you've admitted that its claim to any authentic 'lineage' is rubbish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neeros View Post

    My Sifu encuraged me to study at an Ip Man lineage wing chun school I found, mainly for the sensitivity gained through chi sau. I still currently attend this school, and I find it to be an excellent training, with excellent teachers, and it is a system I plan on practicing for the rest of my life along with my shaolinquan.
    Ah well, plans are funny things. If I were you, I wouldn't get a Shaolin Wah Nam tattoo just yet.

  13. #28
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    wow way to ruin a thread with your petty bullsh!t guys.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    wow way to ruin a thread with your petty bullsh!t guys.
    Is this your group?

    http://www.pailum.org/

  15. #30
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    nope... although I did learn pai lum. Never liked glenn Wilson's stuff. arrogant ass that he is. He's a perfect example of whats wrong with Kung fu these days IMO.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

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