Who Switched from External to Internal Martial Arts and Why?

[Miqi]

On a thread about hard-soft, internal-external person put ..."coming off like a d!ck?" Perhaps that is some internal...I mean [modern terms] Total body release from intention and thought or intent thought expressed physically...

No_Know

Well, I'll make the radical guess that he just meant what he said. My thought process is basically that once people realise that what I'm saying is completely correct, then their percpetion of how I said it will change as well - i.e. what seemed like being a **** is then seen as just rattling your cage a bit, to make people engage with the ideas on that emotional level where what we believe about wushu is very much tied up with what we want to believe about oursleves. But of course, any bully would say that, I guess.

[Dale Dugas]

What an ignorant statement.

"When people realize what I am saying is correct".

LMAO.

As I said before son. Talk and post less and train more.

Go back to standing as well as train your Mo Ca Bu and Shi Li, as you appear to not have done as much as you think.

That you do not understand whole body/complete structure/Unified movement tells me you have not done enough

[Miqi]

What an ignorant statement.

"When people realize what I am saying is correct".

LMAO.

As I said before son. Talk and post less and train more.

Go back to standing as well as train your Mo Ca Bu and Shi Li, as you appear to not have done as much as you think.

That you do not understand whole body/complete structure/Unified movement tells me you have not done enough

Yes, well, I should have said that what I implied were 'my' ideas of course aren't - and that what I mean is, when people realise that these ideas are correct, it places a whole different context on people's apparent 'attitude'. Much like, for example, people used to, and still do, talk about Wang Xiang Zhai as being obnoxious, when in reality, he was just telling the truth. That people hated him for that says more about them than him.

I understand whole body structure - at least in its straightforward yiquan sense. I'm afraid that what you do, or mean by it, as you'll no doubt agree, is beyond my ken.

However, all the best in your training goals.

[Dale Dugas]

if you did you would not have posted what you did.

more standing, more mo ca bu and shili

less posting

[Dale Dugas]

Miqi is on ignore.

He has nothing to offer other than mouthboxing and telling people they are wrong and he is right.

[Miqi]

if you did you would not have posted what you did.

more standing, more mo ca bu and shili

less posting

It raises an interesting point - leaving aside how much training I do - but these things really aren't enough. The other side of the coin of the intuitive method is 'external' training. There really is, in this day and age, no easy way. There is no 'magic power' that will come to you from standing, and compensate for lack of other forms of training that are essential in this day and age, such as cardio, weights, flexibility, functional strength and technical coaching. (External, in this sense, I would class as things learned from, or copied from others, such as coaches - one can follow an intuitive method in cardio, functional strength etc.)

Secondly, the whole idea of 'shut up and train more' is suspicious to me. Why should anyone not discuss their ideas? What are you afraid of? That being by the by, the great danger in following your advice is that if one doesn't actuively engage one's intuition, and just follows the advice of 'traing more', there's no guarantee that what you train won't just be bad habits and pointless exercises drilled until they're internalised. It's actually essential to think, discuss, and engage one's training acitvely to avoid this. Not only that, it actually accelerates one's training. That's why break dancers can do more amazing stuff, and are fitter and stronger, in a year, than the average Western martial artist ever will be.

[Miqi]

Miqi is on ignore.

He has nothing to offer other than mouthboxing and telling people they are wrong and he is right.

Well, that's a shame. I feel you could have really learned something useful here - and I could have felt useful for once. But thanks for letting me know.

[bawang]

I suggest you take your magic yiquan stance to a boxing gym and try it out and contemplate deeply on the memory of your humiliation, it will change you like it changed me when I was a boy. its never too late to learn the lessons of youth.

[Miqi]

I suggest you take your magic yiquan stance to a boxing gym and try it out and contemplate deeply on the memory of your humiliation, it will change you like it changed me when I was a boy. its never too late to learn the lessons of youth.

It didn't change you though, did it.

[YMAA_com]

Something I notice about this conversation: everyone is saying a lot of great things that could be really helpful, especially to a newer student interested in the subject of internal arts, but somehow not quite connecting the dots. There's a lot of arguing although most of what everyone's saying is true/correct.

I think the problem is because we're really talking about three or four different topics, maybe without realizing.

First, its just not right to say the topic of internal/external is dead, or old news. Since this forum is called "Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts", it shouldn't bee taboo to discuss what that means. But, I get it. Its an age old argument about external vs internal, and we rarely see truly accomplished internal artists in the mainstream. But, that doesn't change the facts. I mentioned the traditional definition of internal/external above. Thats not my opinion; its the concept these arts were based on. Thats why I say we don't get to decide to change those definitions based on our opinions.

1. Its important to understand the difference between kinetic energy and metabolic energy. Kinetic energy is your structure/whole body power concept that is often emphasized above. Ideal alignment allows for maximum leverage and power emission, of course. But, that doesn't mean you're not also working with metabolic energy (Qi). Its not an either/or equation. Fai jing is based on Qi/Li, kinteic energy supported abundant Qi.

2. Someone mentioned internal cultivation. This refers to neigong, or qigong. Its not a myth, and its not very mystical or complex. Anyone who trains will go through essentially the same progression. It happens naturally over time, with repeated effort. First you increase your circulation by resolving tension and blockages, and you increase the quantity of energy in the body with exercise, meditation, nutrition, abstinence, etc all the components of qigong you read about. Initially, you feel nothing...then you feel an improved quality of life...then you feel gradual upticks in your energy levels...eventually you physically feel Qi in points and meridians at will...At some point you stop getting sick...and over time with continued practice, you eventually get to having "abundant" Qi by traditional standards, and move into intermediate/advanced cultivation, like siddhis and enlightenment and all that stuff few are interested in nowadays. Im 14 years into practice and it has been very beneficial.

3. All the talk about intuition/intent is kind of a mishmash of ideas, but there is clear talk about it in Qigong theory if you're interested in it. Its two separate topics. Your intention (Yi) leads energy in the body. Your intuition is related to your limbic system/subconscious mind.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in internal arts practice some qigong, either from your martial arts style, or a simple medical qigong like the Eight Brocades, or even just sitting/standing meditation or yiquan, because no matter how adept at fighting we are, eventually it becomes all about our health, vitality, and longevity at some point in life, and inner cultivation can help in a lot of ways.

[Miqi]

Something I notice about this conversation: everyone is saying a lot of great things that could be really helpful, especially to a newer student interested in the subject of internal arts, but somehow not quite connecting the dots. There's a lot of arguing although most of what everyone's saying is true/correct.

Again, what's 'true' isn't the issue. Wushu is a process, and along that process, if we're genuinely looking for real understanding, then we change as well. What's 'true' is very dependent on our experiences and insight in a given period of training. All of these rather glib categorical meanings for 'internal' and 'external' are true in the limited sense that one can see how they could be used for those purposes. At a certain point, however, those are no longer the real meanings - and whether people articulate this through these terms, or just experience the process without naming it, internal means 'intuitive exploration and unfolding of native ability'.

What I believe makes this the truth (and I may be wrong) is not my ego (it's not even my idea), but its practical, empirical potential to fundamentally improve one's level and understanding, in any field. It is, in other words, just sports psychology - but one that appears to be embedded in traditional wushu practice. Rather interestingly.

I think the problem is because we're really talking about three or four different topics, maybe without realizing.

I think you're seeing the right thing, but not connecting the dots in the right way. It's not three or four different interpretations all at odds with one another - it's three or four different points on a continuum - on a process - that are all connected. And although it seems very egotistical to assert this - because I'm obviously implying that I'm further along the process than others - the reverse is true; what I'm saying is actually a profound simplification of the idea, so that one actually needs less, not more, of the magical stance and qi meridians and categories of styles. And I'm more right also because what I say is not culturallly specific, indicating - to me at least - that it's a general principle.

First, its just not right to say the topic of internal/external is dead, or old news. Since this forum is called "Taijiquan and the Internal Martial Arts", it shouldn't bee taboo to discuss what that means. But, I get it. Its an age old argument about external vs internal, and we rarely see truly accomplished internal artists in the mainstream.

Have you noticed, though, how weird it is that people feel the need to intervene and tell everyone that it's dead, and that they should shut up. I think that that's partly because it's frightening to move onto a different part of the process - it would entail certain sacrifices, for example giving up thinking of oneself as practicing - or teaching - an aristorcratic 'internal style', or, from the other side, the danger of there possibly being more to wushu than just learning forms and hitting pads. In which case, other things might be at stake that people are unminded to let go of.

But, that doesn't change the facts. I mentioned the traditional definition of internal/external above. Thats not my opinion; its the concept these arts were based on. Thats why I say we don't get to decide to change those definitions based on our opinions.

Well set yourself free then, because you can do what you want. Yao Xong Zun thought that internal meant 'Chinese' and external meant 'foreign'. Change everything, including the terms, until you get to the real wushu - and don't stop. I'm not going to. Ideas from the past of wushu are often coded but the meaning is hidden in full view - this debate is a perfect example. Either way, what are those tired old definitions giving you? Zero.

1. Its important to understand the difference between kinetic energy and metabolic energy. Kinetic energy is your structure/whole body power concept that is often emphasized above. Ideal alignment allows for maximum leverage and power emission, of course. But, that doesn't mean you're not also working with metabolic energy (Qi). Its not an either/or equation. Fai jing is based on Qi/Li, kinteic energy supported abundant Qi.

Contrary to the people who keep teling me to do more standing and go to the gym, I'm in very good shape for a middle aged man, and full to the brim with life giving qi. However, all of this qi talk is just a collapse back into arcane theory. It takes on a life of its own, until noone can even just simply demonstrate a simple punch on a punch bag that shows 'this is how we do whole body movement in our style'. Look at my explanation - I'm only an amateur, but I can show my - almost too Yao-line - whole body technique to the whole world, without recourse to theory of any kind. And people can see my movement, that involves - amazingly - most of my actual body, lol - If people cannot do that, then no matter how poor and inferior my level is (which they're happy to point out, much to my embarrassment) it's at least real. It's not just something that I say you must believe is there - and indeed, I break it down and show you what I mean by it (or rather, pretty much as it is meant in the kind of yiquan that I'm most infliuenced by).

2. Someone mentioned internal cultivation. This refers to neigong, or qigong. Its not a myth, and its not very mystical or complex. Anyone who trains will go through essentially the same progression. It happens naturally over time, with repeated effort. First you increase your circulation by resolving tension and blockages, and you increase the quantity of energy in the body with exercise, meditation, nutrition, abstinence, etc all the components of qigong you read about. Initially, you feel nothing...then you feel an improved quality of life...then you feel gradual upticks in your energy levels...eventually you physically feel Qi in points and meridians at will...At some point you stop getting sick...and over time with continued practice, you eventually get to having "abundant" Qi by traditional standards, and move into intermediate/advanced cultivation, like siddhis and enlightenment and all that stuff few are interested in nowadays. Im 14 years into practice and it has been very beneficial.

This is a description of a process, in terms that resonate with you. It's not 'true' - it's just a mental model that you find useful. Calling it 'internal cultivation' is just another stage along the path - for instance, once one realises that all of this was just a meaningless mental model, one moves on to a deeper understanding. However, people cling to these models for dear life, and they don't get any further. And they cling to it because this theory, and being an adept in its mysteries, is now part of their identity. And so what seemed like knowledge was really just a fairly obvious trap. What you describe will still be there, long after the theory is discarded, or recognised for what it really is.

3. All the talk about intuition/intent is kind of a mishmash of ideas, but there is clear talk about it in Qigong theory if you're interested in it. Its two separate topics. Your intention (Yi) leads energy in the body. Your intuition is related to your limbic system/subconscious mind.

Trivial arcana. I've never yet seen anyone who said this who could actually move with correct whole body connectivity.

I highly recommend anyone who is interested in internal arts practice some qigong, either from your martial arts style, or a simple medical qigong like the Eight Brocades, or even just sitting/standing meditation or yiquan, because no matter how adept at fighting we are, eventually it becomes all about our health, vitality, and longevity at some point in life, and inner cultivation can help in a lot of ways.

This is the final lie, of course. Actually, without a real, martial goal, the rest is trivial magic stance theory, as Bawang might say without really understanding (because that'll be the day, when he actually gets from behind his keyboard, ceases sniping, and goes down to a fighter's gym). Qigong, standing, meditation - these are just minor aspects of a much bigger whole - and their whole, entire purpose is to unfold intuitive skill. That you didn't know this, yet thought to lecture me on the 'truth', is kind of like the bitter, very lonely irony that I live with when engaging in these discussions.

[YouKnowWho]

This is how "internal" is superior than external.

[Miqi]

Even more amusing, is that they take the fact that Shaolin monks can't do this to be evidence that this is real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=_7urMN0avwo

...not really thinking that, actually, no one can do this. Well - maybe if it was some giant muscle man.

[bawang]

It didn't change you though, did it.

if you try visiting a boxing gym and apply your magic yiquan, maybe it decrease your gay by 40%.

[wenshu]

the bitter, very lonely irony that I live

pretty much