Train as you fight

[Dragonzbane76]

forms have there place but they do not teach fighting. SPJ I don't know if you were referencing the move he was doing to a "single leg" ? Don't see it if you were. From what I've seen there are many TCMA schools that do not teach in a pattern needed for fighting. I'm not saying all but a majority teach backwards if at best. Heavy on the forms for beginners, slow build to the actual fighting/sparring/resistance/ basics.

[MightyB]

Just thought I'd ad this to show the similarities between Judo and Shuai Jiao. This is an inside leg trip, but the set up to YKW's video is very similar.



Notice how they spend their time drilling the move vs an opponent, and then make it work "live" through practice. That's fight training.

[MightyB]

forms have there place but they do not teach fighting. SPJ I don't know if you were referencing the move he was doing to a "single leg" ? Don't see it if you were. From what I've seen there are many TCMA schools that do not teach in a pattern needed for fighting. I'm not saying all but a majority teach backwards if at best. Heavy on the forms for beginners, slow build to the actual fighting/sparring/resistance/ basics.

I watched SPJ's form and I say it looks great. The guy's demonstrating the attributes that are needed in fighting, he's displaying great power and spirit... but that's where it ends for most using that backwards pattern based teaching strategy. People get to the point where they mastered the form and can make it and themselves look terrifying, but that shouldn't be confused with fighting prowess (not saying the guy in the form can't fight because I don't know him, I'm just using the form as a general example because it looks perfect). I say these things because, in a fight, I doubt most practitioners of that style could use even a tenth of the moves that are demonstrated in that form regardless of their ability to display it as a pattern in a terrifying way.

For example, the 1:08 mark which was highlighted as the same move as the SJ clip. Look at his foot placement, his bodyweight distribution and the force of momentum he's doing in the form, and then look at YKW's second clip where the person is using the belt for solo practice. See a difference? Exactly, that's what happens when you drill a move with the intention of using it and you don't care about how pretty you look while doing it.

I think it would be better to learn just one form, break it down to it's individual techniques, and drill those until you can use them live. That to me would be fight training. Then to grow as a martial artist, you'd spar to develop and ad techniques. Maybe you'd learn new forms over time... but the number of forms becomes less important than the ability to execute the techniques that are demonstrated in the patterns as an indicator of mastery of the system.

Like I've said many times in different posts - can you really claim to be a master of something like praying mantis if you can't do its most underlying principle techniques (like the diu sau) in a real fight or friendly sparring?

[MightyB]

These guys do some serious fight training!!!

With all the tough talk I post - I don't think I'd have the Cojones to train like these guys!

[lkfmdc]

Meh, for that sort of thing I prefer Dog Brothers, no gear = not really going at it... one guy has the stick the other doesn't, in real life he'd be beating that guy to death with full power shots....

Sayoc is 100% knife 100% of the time (well, that was what it WAS and was known for)... question is, are you going to walk around all the time with knives and always rely upon them? Some places it's a crime with serious jail time you kow

[Raipizo]

I'm either misreading this or I completely and totally disagree with you. I find that most TCMA with the exception of Xanda (San Da) and Shuai Jiao include very little Fight Training in their systems, whereas systems like boxing, wrestling, Judo, Jiu Jitsu, and Thai boxing are all about fight training (within their rule systems of course). It can be easily remedied by shifting a mindset, and it happens in individual schools, but as a whole - IMO traditional martial arts don't do enough fight training.

This is Boxing - compare it to how time is spent in a Kwoon.

I was just thinking of their forms of conditioning more so. But I guess I can see that. The schools I know train many different ways, sparring included but I don't think as much as a pure fighting art like for the ring or cage etc. And I agree they don't fight enough, you don't have to even go all out to get benefits from sparring.

[YouKnowWho]

Will you call this clip as "train as you fight"?

[Dragonzbane76]

I wouldn't John. Fighting does not follow structure sets. It's chaotic, and this guy performing a "form" or whatever he is doing does not adhere to this. Also anyone solo does not "train as you fight" Fighting takes 2 or more people. You have to have resistance from the other faction. You can throw punches in the air all day it's not going to help you learn how to fight.

[bawang]

when old masters don't fight for years its natural for their forms to shift and distort from realism. when you spar its only natural for your forms to return to its beginning.

[YouKnowWho]

In that clip, only circular moves are shown. Can you use just the circular moves to finish a fight? I can't remember when was the last time that I used "hammer fist" in my fight.

[Jimbo]

It doesn't look like a form. It just looks like he's demonstrating some of his style's basic movements left and right. No, it's not like actual fighting, but I'm not sure it's necessarily meant to be, as it is.

[YouKnowWho]

but I'm not sure it's necessarily meant to be, as it is.

What do you mean by that?

In long fist, there is a

- stealing step (move back leg "behind" the leading leg) side kick, and
- cover step (move back leg "in front of" the leading leg) side kick.

Since I have never used cover step side kick, I see no good reason to spend training time into it.

[Jimbo]

What do you mean by that?

In long fist, there is a

- stealing step (move back leg "behind" the leading leg) side kick, and
- cover step (move back leg "in front of" the leading leg) side kick.

Since I have never used cover step side kick, I see no good reason to spend training time into it.

I mean that he is demonstrating basic movements. He may well be able to apply such moves and footwork. I don't know, but the context in which he's showing them, looks to be for repetition of basic moves. He's working basic technique, but (obviously) not in relation to an opponent. That does not mean that what he's doing is necessarily useless.

The same as someone practicing repeated right and left spinning back kicks to the air (for example). It isn't useless, it definitely has its purpose, and helps develop certain attributes through repetition. But kicking in that manner is not fight training.

BTW, I never understood the 'cover step' side kick. I've always felt it makes it impossible to side kick efficiently.

[bawang]

from the rules of shaolin kung fu, that old master is the lowest level garbage fighter. never lower the hands.

[MightyB]

Thought you'd like these YKW