Ancient American, Polynesian, Asian Civilization

[Jimbo]

There was supposedly ancient Egyptian artefacts discovered in Arizona/The Grand Canyon sometime in the last century or so.

[MarathonTmatt]

There was supposedly ancient Egyptian artefacts discovered in Arizona/The Grand Canyon sometime in the last century or so.

yes sir, I have heard of this as well. some of the indigenous American and Egyptian customs are very close, I wouldn't be surprised! In fact, before the Hebrew bible (which then also spawned Christianity), were the Egyptian texts the Hebrew stuff was based from, which are profoundly similar to original indigenous American Indian beliefs- once people understand this, it is one of the reasons there are so many adherents to the Native American Church.

[MarathonTmatt]

Here are some links supporting evidence that there is a connection between Polynesia and the Chumash Indian Nation of coastal California. One of the things the Chumash are famous for is their tomol canoes, which are sea-faring vessels, with an identical pronunciation to the Polynesian word for boat/canoe. There is also said to be linguistic evidence for a Chumash/Polynesian connection:

http://www.ancient.eu.com/news/3010/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chumash_people

[bawang]

you don't sound like a native. you sound like tightey whitey.

[mickey]

Greetings,

While we are at it:

http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subje.../Califia09.htm



mickey

[MarathonTmatt]

you don't sound like a native. you sound like tightey whitey.

What I am thinking here, and supporting with circumstantial evidence is a cultural, not so much a genetic link, through trade, culture, etc. between certain areas of the America's down thru Polynesia and up around different places in Asia. In fact I am even proposing that the America's could be the ancient homeland of many of today's cultures that some "professionals" have it backwards.

I do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution.

I believe that archeologist's and anthroplogists are in a "good ol' boys club" slanted towards euro-centricism.

There are many oral traditions not only in the America's but around the world of flood stories.

Do I sound like whitey tightey? My sources come from Vine Deloria Jr. (a native scholar) and my own personal experiences with other native people, (it was a friend of the Ponkapoag/ Nipmuc who first turned me on to the Egypt/ Native American cultural relationship, and the more I think and research the more I realize he was right,) and research by people of all races who are thinking outside the box. I am sorry if this might sound a little New-Age I am not that type of a person, (yuck) BUT--- there is a lot that needs to be answered for.

For instance look at that 8 minute Cahokia clip again, it says- "The Great Sun mediated Between Heaven and Earth." Compare that with Egyptian beliefs- it is dead on. The Roman Empire re-wrote the bible and made it literal, ie. "the son of god," lol to fit into white man's roman theology, in other words it was a coup.

[MarathonTmatt]

Greetings,

While we are at it:

http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subje.../Califia09.htm



mickey

yes sir, thanks for the article!

[MarathonTmatt]

you don't sound...

Another thing people need to realize is this-
When I grew up I had school teachers who were perpetrating the "savage native indian" myth. They would say, and believe things like "there's just a small band of nomads here and there without any real culture until we came."

This is obviously wrong. Today, SOME people know better but far and wide, most modern Americans still believe the "savage indian" myth- maybe they feel it justifies their claims for ownership of land, etc. What they do not realize is that before this land was ever colonized my native ancestors here suffered from a double cataclysm.

First, there was the Little Ice Age- this happened around the 12th, 13th century. In Europe the Little Ice Age was responsible for killing 1/3 of the European population. It was more or less the same affect here in North America. This time of the "Little Ice Age" (climate change) coincides with the abandonment of large cultural city centers like Cahokia. The survivors had to abandon places like Cahokia and split into smaller groups, although they did hold on to their religion, traditions, etc.

Only a couple hundred years after this colonists started showing up in the 1500's. You have the Desoto expeditions in the southeast of what's today the United States, introducing disease, capturing slaves, sometimes leaders (there was a woman leader they tried to capture) and basically disrupting different communities. (This is the same time Meso-America was dealing with other conquistadors.)

All along the North Atlantic coast, there were European people who were fishing (Newfoundland, Maine, Massachusetts, New York, North Carolina, Virginia, etc.), they weren't setting up settlements, but they were going into NDN towns for trade, raping women and introducing disease. In this way 80-90%, sometimes 100% of Native communities were killed from European diseases. The disease also spread through trade via navigable water ways (Kennebec River in Maine, Massachusetts, etc.) (This disease spreading by Europeans may or may not have been intentional. The Europeans had already experienced the Black Plague in Europe, they certainly knew what it was.)

Anyway, that was all in the 1500's before any European settlements even existed. In 1620 when the English Puritans colonized Plymouth, Massachusetts, 90% of the original population was already gone for a couple generations, the once mighty nations that were here already were dealt a mighty blow. And of course, what was to follow was more disease, war, and slavery (into the Caribbean Islands where remnant communities from North America, our distant cousins, still live.) In fact, the puritans would set up settlements at already abandoned villages when they first settled in the 1620's.

Most Americans still believe the savage Indian myth. If you look at my post earlier in this thread, "Obsidian artifacts found in New England", you will realize there was sophisticated trade routes all across this country in pre-colonial times- from California all the way to Vermont and beyond! The Taino of Puerto Rico traded all the way up to the Smokey Mountains of Tennessee in pre-colonial times, where distinctly Taino artifacts and relics can be found. Copper from the Great Lakes (Michigan area) was traded widely, down into Central America. The word for "shoe" which is "moccasin" is the same in Aztec (Central America) as it is with my people, the Cree all the way up in Canada.

The cultural and trade center of Cahokia, the once-great city, is not fantasy. That is real. Researchers and archeologists have been studying that place for over a century. Yet, most people do not know that places like Cahokia existed. They do not realize the sophisticated trade networks that were here. As a Native person it is my duty and my inheritance to be a scholar about this, and also to know different customs, traditions, etc. that I can practice with other Native people in private, even if I do not have the whole piece of the pie.

Now, knowing what I know, I am asking some even BIGGER questions on this thread. Some people don't have the understanding I do so they are not ready for this it would seem. That people with brown skin could be connected by culture through the America's, into Polynesia and Asia. Why wouldn't there have been trade, and therefore, a cultural connection and exchange taking place in pre-colonial times between these places. To say there wasn't and to close the book without investigating is racist and selling our history short. There is evidence the Inca's from Peru traded their indigenous sweet potatoes with Polynesians, and obtained tree resin from Polynesia in their mummification practices, and there is perhaps a link between Polynesia and the California Coast.

And look at those statuettes found in South America. They are sitting in a lotus posture which is overwhelmingly Asian-like. Yet, is it Asian like? How old are those statuettes? Could pre-Incan society have influenced some of the culture we see in Asia? Or vice versa? Or, is there a "missing link" from the ancient world that might even tie some of these cultures together? Who is to say for sure, but at least I am asking questions.

There are only something like 88 pyramids in Egypt. There are thousands in Central and North America. How many rich people fly half-way around the world to see something great, when greatness is in their own back yards? There are hundreds of native temples in the New England area. For years, professionals denied their existence and said they are colonial root cellars, even though they are nothing like a root cellar, totally stylistically different! These temples, often called "chambers" also have astronomical alignments to the winter, summer solstices, etc. Finally, some researchers recently found material inside one of these structures they could carbon-date- it was carbon dated to around 750 AD, so we know these structures are Native, and over 1,000 years old!

Yet, most people still believe the "savage barbarian" myth! Look at how great our culture is! It is greatness! Our achievements were great! So great even, that perhaps we were trading and exchanging with people's "outside of the America's" before any white invaders came!

Now I hope people will have a better understanding of where I was coming from in starting this thread.

[MarathonTmatt]

Greetings,

While we are at it:

http://www.beforebc.de/Related.Subje.../Califia09.htm



mickey

Yes, there certainly were black indigenous people here before colonists came. Just like all Asians or Europeans don't always have the same features, it is the same here in the America's. Some of the earliest records by Europeans describing native people here say there were people looking like "the Ethiopians" in one region, and like the bronze/copper (my look) skin-tone in the next region.

I heard through the grapevine that down in New Orleans in the 19th century, slave owners would forbid slaves to dress in native regalia, because then they wouldn't be able to tell the slaves from the natives.

I had a professor, Virginious Thornton III, who is an old black civil rights activist, in fact he was a friend and colleague of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., talk about his native ancestry. I got to know the good professor quite well.

I would speculate that there are many black people who identify as "African American" who may actually be profoundly of indigenous Native American descent. However, the white man has gone to great lengths to keep this information out of the public arena.

[SoCo KungFu]

I do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution.

Then you're an idiot.

There are many oral traditions not only in the America's but around the world of flood stories.

No shit sherlock, roughly 70% of the planet's surface is covered in water. People live near water. What did you expect them to talk about? People in magic sky cities? Oh wait....

My sources come from Vine Deloria Jr. (a native scholar)

Here's a thought. Don't take anthropological data from the musings of a theologian. This idiot thought natives walked amongst the dinosaurs. He's the native version of Ken Ham. He wasn't much a scholar of anything, he was a social activist. He had the scientific literacy of a mentally challenged 3rd grader.

[MarathonTmatt]

Then you're an idiot.



No shit sherlock, roughly 70% of the planet's surface is covered in water. People live near water. What did you expect them to talk about? People in magic sky cities? Oh wait....



Here's a thought. Don't take anthropological data from the musings of a theologian. This idiot thought natives walked amongst the dinosaurs. He's the native version of Ken Ham. He wasn't much a scholar of anything, he was a social activist. He had the scientific literacy of a mentally challenged 3rd grader.

Like I have already said, sometimes there are debates and issues that need to be addressed, and it sure as heck isn't coming from the institutionalized, "professional" community. People like Vine Deloria Jr. provided such means for issues to be addressed. What Deloria did overwhelmingly, is look at these issues from a NATIVE perspective, and apply things like traditional stories into his works to cite evidence, which is overwhelmingly disregarded by scholars but SHOULD be taken more seriously.... after all, WE are the people who have been in this land for thousands of years, we're the ones who have lived here!

People in magic sky cities? WTF is that supposed to mean? Now you are just putting words in my mouth!

Also, you would be surprised at how many people do not understand the relationship between water and culture, coastal communities, etc., and therefore flood stories.

[pazman]

Marathon,
Just as with your disbelief in evolution, you've already established a narrative that you want to believe because it makes you feel good. Why are you even on this forum to debate? Why not just come up with a story of how Atlantis was really the center of an advanced North American civilization, to which the ancient empires of China and Egypt paid tribute to, complete with flying cars and laser beams? Doesn't that make you feel good? It certainly makes me feel good. F*ck this observation and science ****, stories that make me feel good are awesome, and potential best-seller material.


Reality mode:
Co-opting the achievements of American civilizations to conjure up a story is really disrespectful.

[Syn7]

I'm open to considering alternative migratory paths of humans in general and cultural connections that aren't widely accepted, but you lost me at "I do not believe in Darwin's theory of evolution".

How much evidence is required?


One thing that annoys the hell out of me is when scientifically illiterate people with massive confirmation bias cherry pick outliers and say "see, you don't know everything". Not to mention how they can't differentiate between what a scientist means when they say "theory" and how the term is used in normal conversation about whatever.

[MarathonTmatt]

Marathon,
Just as with your disbelief in evolution, you've already established a narrative that you want to believe because it makes you feel good. Why are you even on this forum to debate? Why not just come up with a story of how Atlantis was really the center of an advanced North American civilization, to which the ancient empires of China and Egypt paid tribute to, complete with flying cars and laser beams? Doesn't that make you feel good? It certainly makes me feel good. F*ck this observation and science ****, stories that make me feel good are awesome, and potential best-seller material.


Reality mode:
Co-opting the achievements of American civilizations to conjure up a story is really disrespectful.

I am not conjuring up stories.

I am questioning circumstantial evidence if there is any link through trade (art, culture, material goods, etc.) between people's in the past, pre-colonial times, through the Pacific water-ways in particular South America, Polynesia and SouthEast Asia. I have done nothing dis-respectful, except maybe not make myself clear in the beginning, even maybe sounding a bit carried away in the beginning. But since then I have been attempting to clarify myself.

There is no shred of fantasy in these posts besides the fantasy that you have suggested in your posts, which I resent.

If there was any link at all between certain parts of the America's with Polynesia and SouthEast Asia, I can tell you right now it would not be denigrating or disrespectful, it would only high-light out how disrespectful colonists and scholars have been to native people for centuries. It would not take away any of the glorious achievements of the past- only make them greater.

Could there be something to this idea? Man, I really don't know, that's why I am asking questions! I can see where you are coming from with your points, but I can't help but feel that you take me the wrong way.

[bawang]

sounds like you need to stop sniffing gasoline.