Controlling an Opponent's Balance

[tc101]

What does breaking structure really mean?

As I said, its the same thing as disrupting the opponent's balance, making them take a step to catch themselves, making them pivot or turn.

I also think this shows that the focus should be on those sorts of basic things instead of breaking structure or controling the cog or whatever which how will you do if you cannot land solid shots?

I think breaking structure would actually be easier than landing a solid shot. How many times have you seen boxers clinch and neither is able to land a solid shot but one guy shoves the other guy away to break the clinch and makes him take a step to catch his balance or bounce of off the ropes to catch his balance? How many times have you seen Thai boxers in a clinch and one guy grabs the other around the neck and slings him around the ring so that he can't get set to land a solid shot? That's breaking structure or disrupting balance and COG. How many times have you seen an MMA fighter land a good roundhouse to the leg that buckles the opponent's leg and turns him a bit and makes an opening for a hard punch? That's breaking structure. This kind of stuff happens all the time. That's why I can't see why you keep saying it doesn't or is unlikely. Look at Alan Orr doing it in a Wing Chun Chi Sao context in those videos above.

I do not want to look at things from unrealistic contexts to give me insights into what goes on in realistic contexts. I do not think it makes sense to do that. The one doesn't translate to the other.

I think what you are referring to is not disrupting balance. You can push a heavy piece of furniture around the room but you are not disrupting its balance. It is always in balance. Same as when you push someone around, they will if they are fighting you maintain their balance. Guys in the MT clinch keep their balance. You don't see them getting slung around the ring. What people fight for in a clinch is superior position so that they can hit you but the position does not allow you to hit them. It is not balance put position that gives you opportunities. If I have double bicep control I can hit you and you cannot hit me, if I have an undertook I have the opportunity to get your leg and you don't, and so forth. When you do pummeling gor example the fight is for position. Position creates opportunity.

Your example of the leg kick goes to what I am saying. In striking focus on landing solid shots. Landing them creates openings for more solid shots.

It is realistic if you are training or teaching to focus on objectives like position or landing solid shots than on fuzzy things. Those things will take you to where you want to go.

[WC1277]

You can maintain whatever you want and you can offer all the non sparring and non fighting videos you want but see you still cannot do what I asked and show me the fighting or sparring where a wing chun guy is controlling the opponent's balance and center of gravity in the fight. There are videos of the Orr team sparring and fighting yes? Do you see them doing this in their sparring and fighting? No. Yes but he would not teach something he did not think was useful. Really? His guys are not doing it when they spar or fight? Do you not understand that?

Why maintain we should do this or that when no one ever really does it?

No one really "controls" the other person's COG. You're ultimately only controlling your own and if done well, by consequence, the other person will 'usually' lose theirs. Think 'ma bo chi sau'...

[tc101]

No one really "controls" the other person's COG. You're ultimately only controlling your own and if done well, by consequence, the other person will 'usually' lose theirs. Think 'ma bo chi sau'...

No. This is the sort of stuff you fall into when you focus on unrealistic stuff.

[WC1277]

No. This is the sort of stuff you fall into when you focus on unrealistic stuff.

Umm no... That is entirely realistic. You ultimately can only control your own COG. Even if you're intentionally 'trying' to control your opponents, it's definitely not possible without you being able to control your own first. So, using basic logic, what do you think would be the thing to concentrate on while training?

[KPM]

For all of T's personal flaws, in a general sense he's right with what he's saying here. This is what I would call basic Wing Chun 101

Yep! That's what I said way back in the "chasing hands" thread that started this whole spin-off discussion. WCK101.

[KPM]

Without even looking very hard I found this clip. Watch how this former boxing Champ "breaks structure" by turning his opponent at about 1:40:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnQoVZdPq_Y

[tc101]

Without even looking very hard I found this clip. Watch how this former boxing Champ "breaks structure" by turning his opponent at about 1:40:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnQoVZdPq_Y

Really I am at a loss for what you call breaks structure. This terminology makes little sense to me. He got position by holding and pivoting. Is getting position on a guy what you call breaking structure? So if I duck a hook and pivot to the flank without touching my opponent did I just in your word break his structure?

[tc101]

Umm no... That is entirely realistic. You ultimately can only control your own COG. Even if you're intentionally 'trying' to control your opponents, it's definitely not possible without you being able to control your own first. So, using basic logic, what do you think would be the thing to concentrate on while training?

Things that matter.

[Grumblegeezer]

I think what you are referring to is not disrupting balance ...What people fight for in a clinch is superior position so that they can hit you but the position does not allow you to hit them.

It is realistic if you are training or teaching to focus on objectives like position or landing solid shots...

I thing you clear up a lot with these comments, and I agree.

Still, I'd say that with good position you gain superior balance. When you get a really good position, with angle and range advantage, you will have a stability advantage too --which makes it easier to hit accurately and hard. Granted, if your opponent is any good, he won't be stumbling around or falling down like a drunk (as in some of these demos). But he will be having to adjust his stance to recover position and optimum balance. As long as you have the better position and he's playing catch-up, you have an advantage. That's all. And that might be enough.

[KPM]

Really I am at a loss for what you call breaks structure. This terminology makes little sense to me. He got position by holding and pivoting. Is getting position on a guy what you call breaking structure? So if I duck a hook and pivot to the flank without touching my opponent did I just in your word break his structure?

How much clearer can I make it? I've talked about disrupting the opponent's balance or COG or breaking his structure as all being the same thing. I've described it as making the opponent take a step to recover his balance, turning or twisting him so he can't respond, etc. I quoted Terrence Niehoff talking about doing this by using a strike, push, pull, press, lift, jerk, etc. I've posted videos of Alan Orr, Jerry Yeung, and this boxing guy doing it. ****, what more do you want????

No, bobbing and weaving to get to an opening is not "breaking the opponent's structure" because you have done nothing to the oppoent. But shoving his elbow into his body to turn him away from you and create an opening for a strike (as in the video) is "breaking structure." I've given multiple examples. You just don't want to see it!

[KPM]

But he will be having to adjust his stance to recover position and optimum balance. As long as you have the better position and he's playing catch-up, you have an advantage. That's all. And that might be enough.

And that's exactly what "breaking structure" means!

[WC1277]

Things that matter.

Wow, you really are an a$$hat, aren't you?

I've been gone for a while. Did we ever either confirm or deny if TC101 is that Dominick Izzo guy?

[KPM]

Here's another one. Izzo this time. At about the 3 minute mark he comments "its my structure that allows me to disturb his balance." Then he talks about targeting the center of the opponent with strikes in order to disrupt his balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkiOKfBCnzU

So no, I don't think tc101 is Dominick Izzo.

[Grumblegeezer]

Here's another one. Izzo this time. At about the 3 minute mark he comments "its my structure that allows me to disturb his balance." Then he talks about targeting the center of the opponent with strikes in order to disrupt his balance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkiOKfBCnzU

So no, I don't think tc101 is Dominick Izzo.

Obviously. Besides, Izzo isn't the shy type. I can't imagine him using a pseudonym.

[LFJ]

Obviously. Besides, Izzo isn't the shy type. I can't imagine him using a pseudonym.

Plus he doesn't train realistically either. I don't think tc101 would approve of Izzo's silly "5 step drill".