Thanks Glenn!Originally Posted by GlennR
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Thanks Glenn!
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Hey Jim!
Good points made and they should not be passed over with the HFY/TWC debate here.
The 1st complaint is Hendrik's so-called wrong translation of S&C Kuit "Flying Snake...". Im confused? If this translation was so aweful then how come Wayne didn't change it before publishing it in NMH and other locations?
Same translation in NMH, Same translation in eBook on page 2 & 6 "Flying Snake.."
That confused me as well, given that LFJ has done a great job of talking about the translations and how ALL of them had problems.
The 2nd complaint is a wrong date in Sergio's "True History Part Two". Why blame Hendrik for this? For the past two years Hendrik has stated 1890 numerous times but someone makes a video and quotes the wrong date and S&C has a hissy fit? This IMO is laughable.
I agree. When I have seen Hendrik posting in the past it was always with the 1890's date.
Hendrik & Wayne never had one issue until Sergio contacted Hendrik! YES That is the real issue. When Sergio & Hendrik started talking, Wayne freaked out and so began the beginning of the end of their friendship. The rest of this a smoke screen.
Ok. That sounds like a good possibility! But why would Sergio's involvement produce such a reaction from Wayne?
So, lets review, Wayne publishes something but later blames Hendrik. He then blames Hendrik for a mis-quote in Sergio's video. Wayne also has no problem publishing articles claiming LLG but tells others the known wrong info from the 1890 book.... I could go on and on.........
And he makes some off-hand comment about Hendrik not even finishing the YK SLT form? Where did that come from?
Like I said before, Hendrik and I have had our differences and I still disagree with his position on the San Sik training within KLPSWCK, but when things being said about someone just don't add up, I'm going to speak up. Maybe that's part of being a "drama queen".
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This announcement is showing up everywhere. Hendrik has responded to this on the Facebook group "wing Chun Forum" if anyone interested. There are photos of old letters between him and Cho family disproving these claims
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Disproving which claims specifically?
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Ok. I went to the "Wing Chun forum" facebook page to see what Hendrik has written. He provides some letters that are all in Chinese. So someone will have to tell most of us here what they say if you intend this discussion to make any sense at all.
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Just new postings from Facbook from Wayne Yung & Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun (班中正旦金曹家詠春)
From Sifu Wayne
BaiSee, Loyalty, MoDak, Ethics, Morality... Family rules ....
In Traditional Kung Fu families, BaiSee is a very important to a practitioner to become a disciple of a family. In his whole life, only the BaisSee sifu is his exclusive sifu for his whole life. He need loyalty to the family and pay hard to learn the complete system of the family, then carry forward to the next generation. The length will be last for his rest of the whole life. As a sifu, he will pass the whole system to the disciple. Besides learning the skills, disciples also need to learn what a MoDak, Martial Arts ethics & morality are. That's the important pats of the traditional kung fu culture. Individual families they have their individual cultures based on their yearly development. Being disciples need to learn the culture of what their family as well.
Today, kung fu practitioners should be educated what the traditional kung fu culture is. What they need to follow, as they learn the arts. However, some people not paying too much effort on learning, and try to make a discipleship relation to take advantages from the families. Really, how much they understand the arts of the families they make baisee to a sifu there, and become just a collector only.
Some of them wearing a research robe trying to dig something out from some low profile families, and represent them bringing them out to the public. How much do they know why the lineage keeping low profile, not opening up ? Does it intrude the privacy of individual lineages ? Really, the term "Research", what really means ? In What ways ? Doing research means they can do whatever they like to explore IN ANY MEANS to get information IMPROPERLY? Will it hurt those lineages and destroying the individual lineage duties ? For what ? Then makes their own interpretation to show to the public. For their individual benefits or any other HIDDEN means ? It makes no difference like stealing in a improper way. Those people they are not the real researchers, what they behave just like what called MuLamLoShe( A mouse in Martial Arts Community).
Can this type of behaviours exist on the today martial arts researchers ? What the information they get in improper ways, are they good to the martial arts community ?
Finally, RCHS, what type of Chinese characters being used in the Ancient China? When the Simplied characters introduced today commonly used in China? Are there any SI units introduced in 19th century?
From Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun (班中正旦金曹家詠春)
Below is the picture showing Ku Sifu hand written and signature
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From Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun (班中正旦金曹家詠春)
Below is the picture showing Ku Sifu hand written and signature
I believe this is to prove Ku's Sifu signature is different from what hendrik posted.
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I'm still waiting for someone to explain this and tell us just what is going here. Hendrik's response to these accusations on facebook were all in Chinese and no one has offered to explain his counterpoints.
Recently Mr. (Hendrik Santo) has been posting about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam) and Cho family arts, without the recognition of the Cho Family, openly on the Internet.
Since when it is against the rules to post about any martial art? Why does Hendrik need "Cho Family recognition" to talk about Yik Kam's WCK?
He has led the public to believe that he himself is "Yik Kam Wing Chun’s successor and Cho Ga Wing Chun’s only inheritor".
Ok. Where has he done that? As far as I know he hasn't done that here in the KFO forum. Someone needs to post a copy of what Hendrik has written where he says this.
He has presented wrong information concerning the Ban Chung Wing Chun system, irresponsibly fabricating the Cho family history whilst ignoring the presence of Cho family descendants. Such behavior is considered rude and not in line with Martial Art ethics.
Ok. But Hendrik has been doing a lot of research into ALL WCK history. He and others have essentially "rewritten" the history of every "family" of WCK. Why should the Cho family specifically take offense to this? What do the "Cho family descendants" have to do with historical research? Again, context for all of these statements being cut and pasted here is pretty important. Otherwise it all just looks like a big smear campaign aimed at one individual....Hendrik.
After verification by the Cho family, we feel the need to inform the public that Mr. Hendrik Santo is neither related to nor does he have any relationship with the Cho family successors.
So, you have to be a blood relative to study the Cho Ga system?????
All he has said about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam), Cho Dak Sing, Cho family history or Cho family martial art theory are far from the truth. If anyone wishes to practice or listen to any of Mr. Hendrik Santo’s teachings, that’s all well and good but it has nothing to do with Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun .
This sounds like the only valid complaint in this whole thing. But it would be helpful if they said just what exactly they think Hendrik has wrong as far as what he has been saying about Yik Kam WCK theory and practice.
As over the years Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun has only been inherited privately and passed down in a traditional way, there is not much exposed to the public. All theory and teaching of our kung fu is for students only.
Ah! THIS is likely the main problem! Hendrik has "revealed the family secrets" to the public without permission!
Therefore we ask for understanding and respect from the public as to why we are such a mystery. However, if anyone is interested to know more about the history of Wing Chun of the Cho Family you can directly meet up with our Master – Grand Master Ku Choi Wah.
I've never understood this need for secrecy in modern times. In the old days when you might have to fight for your life, your family, or your livelihood it made sense to keep the family or village fighting methods secret so an enemy wouldn't be able to anticipate what you might do and be prepared for it. But no one is regularly using their martial arts training to stay alive. So this "family secret" mentality is no longer necessary. It just increases that chance that your family martial art is going to die out with coming generations as modern members lose interest in martial arts training.
GM Ku was the sole inheritor of Great Grand Master Cho Yin On (in his later years) and later Master Ku was authorized by Cho Dak Sing’s grandson, Cho Bak Lin(曹柏伦), as the overseas Master and Ban Chung Zhen Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun representative. The Cho Family has therefore recognized Master Ku.
Has Hendrik ever claimed to be the "Grandmaster" of anything? Again, these are pretty strong accusations and would need something to back them up.
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Hendrik as well as everyone else should realize that student CANNOT be better than teacher in any way . Student cannot be more intelligent , stronger , faster ,have more students , be better known , ect. If student has only one of these things than, what happened to Hendrik is natural cause of events . Hendrik is an intelligent person and it is my believe that he is able to explain Cho Gar theories in much more detail and much deeper than anyone else , he also developed these theories further . Now , he has much more attention than "cho family \grandmaster\ inheritor of the system" or whoever , when you say Yik Kam wing chun first thing that crosses most of the people's mind is "Hendrik" , so they decided to put him down. Although I do not agree with most of the things Hendrik said in this thing I am on his side .I'm still waiting for someone to explain this and tell us just what is going here. Hendrik's response to these accusations on facebook were all in Chinese and no one has offered to explain his counterpoints.
Recently Mr. (Hendrik Santo) has been posting about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam) and Cho family arts, without the recognition of the Cho Family, openly on the Internet.
Since when it is against the rules to post about any martial art? Why does Hendrik need "Cho Family recognition" to talk about Yik Kam's WCK?
He has led the public to believe that he himself is "Yik Kam Wing Chun’s successor and Cho Ga Wing Chun’s only inheritor".
Ok. Where has he done that? As far as I know he hasn't done that here in the KFO forum. Someone needs to post a copy of what Hendrik has written where he says this.
He has presented wrong information concerning the Ban Chung Wing Chun system, irresponsibly fabricating the Cho family history whilst ignoring the presence of Cho family descendants. Such behavior is considered rude and not in line with Martial Art ethics.
Ok. But Hendrik has been doing a lot of research into ALL WCK history. He and others have essentially "rewritten" the history of every "family" of WCK. Why should the Cho family specifically take offense to this? What do the "Cho family descendants" have to do with historical research? Again, context for all of these statements being cut and pasted here is pretty important. Otherwise it all just looks like a big smear campaign aimed at one individual....Hendrik.
After verification by the Cho family, we feel the need to inform the public that Mr. Hendrik Santo is neither related to nor does he have any relationship with the Cho family successors.
So, you have to be a blood relative to study the Cho Ga system?????
All he has said about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam), Cho Dak Sing, Cho family history or Cho family martial art theory are far from the truth. If anyone wishes to practice or listen to any of Mr. Hendrik Santo’s teachings, that’s all well and good but it has nothing to do with Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun .
This sounds like the only valid complaint in this whole thing. But it would be helpful if they said just what exactly they think Hendrik has wrong as far as what he has been saying about Yik Kam WCK theory and practice.
As over the years Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun has only been inherited privately and passed down in a traditional way, there is not much exposed to the public. All theory and teaching of our kung fu is for students only.
Ah! THIS is likely the main problem! Hendrik has "revealed the family secrets" to the public without permission!
Therefore we ask for understanding and respect from the public as to why we are such a mystery. However, if anyone is interested to know more about the history of Wing Chun of the Cho Family you can directly meet up with our Master – Grand Master Ku Choi Wah.
I've never understood this need for secrecy in modern times. In the old days when you might have to fight for your life, your family, or your livelihood it made sense to keep the family or village fighting methods secret so an enemy wouldn't be able to anticipate what you might do and be prepared for it. But no one is regularly using their martial arts training to stay alive. So this "family secret" mentality is no longer necessary. It just increases that chance that your family martial art is going to die out with coming generations as modern members lose interest in martial arts training.
GM Ku was the sole inheritor of Great Grand Master Cho Yin On (in his later years) and later Master Ku was authorized by Cho Dak Sing’s grandson, Cho Bak Lin(曹柏伦), as the overseas Master and Ban Chung Zhen Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun representative. The Cho Family has therefore recognized Master Ku.
Has Hendrik ever claimed to be the "Grandmaster" of anything? Again, these are pretty strong accusations and would need something to back them up.
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KPM, basically the announcement was saying Hendrik has nothing to do with Cho family and is not authorized to represent them, when there are letters showing his correspondence with Ku sifu and Hendrik's own sifu Cho Hung Choy. So people on one side saying something and there is evidence showing the opposite. Hendrik does know Cho family members and Cho Hung Choy authorized Hendrik to represent his teachings in the US.
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RCHS = Robert Chu? Hendrik Santo?Just new postings from Facbook from Wayne Yung & Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun (班中正旦金曹家詠春)
From Sifu Wayne
BaiSee, Loyalty, MoDak, Ethics, Morality... Family rules ....
In Traditional Kung Fu families, BaiSee is a very important to a practitioner to become a disciple of a family. In his whole life, only the BaisSee sifu is his exclusive sifu for his whole life. He need loyalty to the family and pay hard to learn the complete system of the family, then carry forward to the next generation. The length will be last for his rest of the whole life. As a sifu, he will pass the whole system to the disciple. Besides learning the skills, disciples also need to learn what a MoDak, Martial Arts ethics & morality are. That's the important pats of the traditional kung fu culture. Individual families they have their individual cultures based on their yearly development. Being disciples need to learn the culture of what their family as well.
Today, kung fu practitioners should be educated what the traditional kung fu culture is. What they need to follow, as they learn the arts. However, some people not paying too much effort on learning, and try to make a discipleship relation to take advantages from the families. Really, how much they understand the arts of the families they make baisee to a sifu there, and become just a collector only.
Some of them wearing a research robe trying to dig something out from some low profile families, and represent them bringing them out to the public. How much do they know why the lineage keeping low profile, not opening up ? Does it intrude the privacy of individual lineages ? Really, the term "Research", what really means ? In What ways ? Doing research means they can do whatever they like to explore IN ANY MEANS to get information IMPROPERLY? Will it hurt those lineages and destroying the individual lineage duties ? For what ? Then makes their own interpretation to show to the public. For their individual benefits or any other HIDDEN means ? It makes no difference like stealing in a improper way. Those people they are not the real researchers, what they behave just like what called MuLamLoShe( A mouse in Martial Arts Community).
Can this type of behaviours exist on the today martial arts researchers ? What the information they get in improper ways, are they good to the martial arts community ?
Finally, RCHS, what type of Chinese characters being used in the Ancient China? When the Simplied characters introduced today commonly used in China? Are there any SI units introduced in 19th century?
From Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun (班中正旦金曹家詠春)
Below is the picture showing Ku Sifu hand written and signature
"what they behave just like what called MuLamLoShe( A mouse in Martial Arts Community)."
Obviously there are many misrepresentations and incorrect information of WC by Sifu Sergio on his internet channel. It's unfortunate that the public is being misguided about the history of WC.
The dishonesty of these two people has made their SCWC/YKWC masters blood boil. Ironically both have been denounced by their own schools.
Is Sifu Sergio the qualified to represent the WC community as a researcher? Why has much of the content of Sifu Sergio's research been proved incorrect. He is so quick to take anyone at their word for a story. He should do more research into his sources instead of writing stories from these wannabes. For the last few years, Sifu Sergio has discredited Yip Man WC as not a real source of WC. He also represented Chi Sim and Black Flag as the original WC which shortly thereafter was proved false. Now the information about SCWC/YKWC as presented by Robert Chu and Hendrik Santo is also being questioned by their SCWC/YKWC.
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Everyone who starts to think with his own head or starts his own business will be denounced by his teacher/school/organization , we have seen this so many times before . About dishonesty , making up histories of the kung fu styles is part of Chinese culture , why would Sergio , Chu , Hendrik or anyone else have less right to invent his own history than Yip Man, William Cheung , Leung Ting ...(list can go on forever ).
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If Hendrik is now stating he is teaching his self-created "HendrikWing Chun Kuen" then I don;t think people would have an issue with that but he hasn't. He is misrepresenting himself as a strict lineage Teacher of Wing Chun of the Emei / Snake/ Crane lines also which he is not and therefore is the issue on hand here.
Wayne is talking about a breach of trust placed in this person not so much what he is or is not sharing. Even so, to share something which belongs to another without citing that source is not right. Also we have traditions within the Martial Arts for a reason and that is to protect knowledge from being given out to all and sundry, misinterpreted and then changed from it's original essence until the original teachings become lost. Wayne is simply trying to protect his tradition. Would any of you not do the same?
Ron Goninan
China Fuzhou Zhenlan Crane Boxing Australia
White Crane Research Institute Inc
http://www.whitecranegongfu.info
A seeker of the way
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I guess I am coming up against our cultural differences when I read your above post zuti. First, I think the better teachers of wing chun actually want their students to surpass and be better than them. Granted, there are many sifus who will teach you incorrectly to ensure that does not happen. I do not think it right that Hendrik be chastised for simply being better able to articulate a theory. It comes across as jealousy by the cho gar 'clan'.
However, if Hendrik has seriously misrepresented said theories then, as people such as KPM has requested, tell us precisely where he has gone wrong and expand upon said theories from your perspective. Saying 'come visit our grandmaster to find out' does not hold water with me and begs the question, how much are you going to charge us to get but basic information? The complaint on 'prestige' and notoriety and whose name is associated with said wing chun clan, is very child like.
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Like noticed , many people involved in Wing Chun are infantile in their behavior , all thous " my lineage, history, teacher , style, ect" is better than yours is typical childish behavior . In all my time I've met only one person who actually wants to be surpassed by his students . About Hendrik , my impression is that he has been attacked just because he has much more public attention than other Cho family members .
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