Latest WCI and WCK history

[KPM]

Who has read the newest issue of Wing Chun Illustrated? All dedicated Wing Chun people should subscribe to this. This is a great thing for Wing Chun and needs everyone's support to continue to thrive.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, go here:

http://www.wingchunillustrated.com/

Lots of good articles this month, but I wanted to comment on the ones by or featuring Robert Chu and his comments on Wing Chun history.

Robert stated what many of us have concluded....that the "Leung Bik" story was fabricated and the likely "real" Leung Bik was actually Yuen Kay Shan. Yip Man could not acknowledge Yuen Kay Shan as the sources for his departures from the Wing Chun of his Chan Wah Shun classmates because Yuen had been his childhood friend and was not his primary teacher.

Yip Man's version of Wing Chun was his own in that he innovated some things and adopted some things from others people such as YKS, Chu Chong Man, and others.

Robert also backed up what Hendrik has been telling us recently. Robert noted that he has seen the documents that Hendrik has been referring to, that he has personally trained with the Snake/Crane WCK guys, and that he believes the basic history that Hendrik has researched and laid out. To me, this gives a lot of credibility to Hendrik's research, knowing that someone else very knowledgeable in Wing Chun as well as martial art and Chinese history has checked it out and "vetted it".

I know that won't be enough for a lot of you. But its enough for me! Good going Hendrik! Keep up the good work!

Now go buy the latest issue of WCI to see what I'm talking about!

[hunt1]

Have to disagree about Yip man history. I have a great deal of respect for Robert but he is just repeating stories. Until someone deals with what Jui Wan told his students and his own son there is no credibility to the YKS being Leung Bik theory. Jui Wan knew YKS and his wing chun. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in his own right when he left Fatshan for Hong Kong. Jui Wan is the only credible source that knew and trained with Yip Man, Yui Choi, YKS and the other wing chun people in Fatshan.

Jui Wan said that in Fatshan Yip Mans wing chun was like everyone else's. However in Hong Kong Yip Man's wing chun was different and much better. So much so that Jui Wan studied under Yip Man. To this point in time every story teller I have heard talking about Yip Man learning advanced things from YKS and YKS really being Leung Bik has ignored the only person that was a wing chun sifu in both Fatshan and Hong Kong and knew Yip and his wing chun in both places. Yip may have trained with YKS but the wing chun that impressed Jui Wan was not YKS wing chun. Jui Wan was clear that whatever Yip was now doing with him was different that what was being done in Fatshan.

Leung Bik may have been made up. There is some evidence Yip spent time with Fung Wah in Hong Kong. Yip wing chun also contains signatures that did not come from YKS or Chan Wah. If you know about signatures in the forms you know how distinctive and subtle these signatures can be.

[KPM]

Have to disagree about Yip man history. I have a great deal of respect for Robert but he is just repeating stories. Until someone deals with what Jui Wan told his students and his own son there is no credibility to the YKS being Leung Bik theory. Jui Wan knew YKS and his wing chun. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in his own right when he left Fatshan for Hong Kong. Jui Wan is the only credible source that knew and trained with Yip Man, Yui Choi, YKS and the other wing chun people in Fatshan.

Jui Wan said that in Fatshan Yip Mans wing chun was like everyone else's. However in Hong Kong Yip Man's wing chun was different and much better. So much so that Jui Wan studied under Yip Man. To this point in time every story teller I have heard talking about Yip Man learning advanced things from YKS and YKS really being Leung Bik has ignored the only person that was a wing chun sifu in both Fatshan and Hong Kong and knew Yip and his wing chun in both places. Yip may have trained with YKS but the wing chun that impressed Jui Wan was not YKS wing chun. Jui Wan was clear that whatever Yip was now doing with him was different that what was being done in Fatshan.

Leung Bik may have been made up. There is some evidence Yip spent time with Fung Wah in Hong Kong. Yip wing chun also contains signatures that did not come from YKS or Chan Wah. If you know about signatures in the forms you know how distinctive and subtle these signatures can be.

Hey Hunt1!

That may be true! But I don't know anything about Fung Wah. Who was he? As I noted above, Robert has acknowledged that Yip Man drew from multiple sources. Maybe Fung Wah was one of them! Maybe the whole Leung Bik story was a general cover and not meant to refer to any one person.

[Vajramusti]

Have to disagree about Yip man history. I have a great deal of respect for Robert but he is just repeating stories. Until someone deals with what Jui Wan told his students and his own son there is no credibility to the YKS being Leung Bik theory. Jui Wan knew YKS and his wing chun. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in his own right when he left Fatshan for Hong Kong. Jui Wan is the only credible source that knew and trained with Yip Man, Yui Choi, YKS and the other wing chun people in Fatshan.

Jui Wan said that in Fatshan Yip Mans wing chun was like everyone else's. However in Hong Kong Yip Man's wing chun was different and much better. So much so that Jui Wan studied under Yip Man. To this point in time every story teller I have heard talking about Yip Man learning advanced things from YKS and YKS really being Leung Bik has ignored the only person that was a wing chun sifu in both Fatshan and Hong Kong and knew Yip and his wing chun in both places. Yip may have trained with YKS but the wing chun that impressed Jui Wan was not YKS wing chun. Jui Wan was clear that whatever Yip was now doing with him was different that what was being done in Fatshan.

Leung Bik may have been made up. There is some evidence Yip spent time with Fung Wah in Hong Kong. Yip wing chun also contains signatures that did not come from YKS or Chan Wah. If you know about signatures in the forms you know how distinctive and subtle these signatures can be.

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A good comment Hunt1.

[kung fu fighter]

Have to disagree about Yip man history. I have a great deal of respect for Robert but he is just repeating stories. Until someone deals with what Jui Wan told his students and his own son there is no credibility to the YKS being Leung Bik theory. Jui Wan knew YKS and his wing chun. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in his own right when he left Fatshan for Hong Kong. Jui Wan is the only credible source that knew and trained with Yip Man, Yui Choi, YKS and the other wing chun people in Fatshan.

Jui Wan said that in Fatshan Yip Mans wing chun was like everyone else's. However in Hong Kong Yip Man's wing chun was different and much better. So much so that Jui Wan studied under Yip Man. To this point in time every story teller I have heard talking about Yip Man learning advanced things from YKS and YKS really being Leung Bik has ignored the only person that was a wing chun sifu in both Fatshan and Hong Kong and knew Yip and his wing chun in both places. Yip may have trained with YKS but the wing chun that impressed Jui Wan was not YKS wing chun. Jui Wan was clear that whatever Yip was now doing with him was different that what was being done in Fatshan.

Leung Bik may have been made up. There is some evidence Yip spent time with Fung Wah in Hong Kong. Yip wing chun also contains signatures that did not come from YKS or Chan Wah. If you know about signatures in the forms you know how distinctive and subtle these signatures can be.

Yuen Kay San didn't openly teach his system in Fatshan, in fact he was quite secretive. I believe he only shared some stuff with Yip Man and Wong Jing, and Sum Nung was the only disciple to have learnt everything from him. so I am not sure how Jiu Wan would have known what YKS knew or not knew. My sifu is very good friends with Jiu wan's son whom used to live in Toronto before moving back to Hong Kong. He even gave me 10 out of 10 as a judge in a tornament for my wooden dummy form performance about 15 years ago. Looking back I wished I would have asked him more about this.

I don't know anything about Fung Wah. Who was he?

Fung Wah was one of Leung Jan's student. http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...?n=WCP.FungWah

[tc101]

Have to disagree about Yip man history. I have a great deal of respect for Robert but he is just repeating stories. Until someone deals with what Jui Wan told his students and his own son there is no credibility to the YKS being Leung Bik theory. Jui Wan knew YKS and his wing chun. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in his own right when he left Fatshan for Hong Kong. Jui Wan is the only credible source that knew and trained with Yip Man, Yui Choi, YKS and the other wing chun people in Fatshan.

Jui Wan said that in Fatshan Yip Mans wing chun was like everyone else's. However in Hong Kong Yip Man's wing chun was different and much better. So much so that Jui Wan studied under Yip Man. To this point in time every story teller I have heard talking about Yip Man learning advanced things from YKS and YKS really being Leung Bik has ignored the only person that was a wing chun sifu in both Fatshan and Hong Kong and knew Yip and his wing chun in both places. Yip may have trained with YKS but the wing chun that impressed Jui Wan was not YKS wing chun. Jui Wan was clear that whatever Yip was now doing with him was different that what was being done in Fatshan.

Leung Bik may have been made up. There is some evidence Yip spent time with Fung Wah in Hong Kong. Yip wing chun also contains signatures that did not come from YKS or Chan Wah. If you know about signatures in the forms you know how distinctive and subtle these signatures can be.

This is interesting. What I am wondering is that what Yip Man taught in HK changed a great deal over the tme he was in HK forms changed drills changed and so forth, and that his early guys like Leung Sheung did look much more like Foshan wing chun and what YKS was teaching and seemed to evolved from there so when exactly did JW begin training with YM? Was it early days or later days?

[Hendrik]

Who has read the newest issue of Wing Chun Illustrated? All dedicated Wing Chun people should subscribe to this. This is a great thing for Wing Chun and needs everyone's support to continue to thrive.

If you don't know what I'm talking about, go here:

http://www.wingchunillustrated.com/

Lots of good articles this month, but I wanted to comment on the ones by or featuring Robert Chu and his comments on Wing Chun history.

Robert also backed up what Hendrik has been telling us recently. Robert noted that he has seen the documents that Hendrik has been referring to, that he has personally trained with the Snake/Crane WCK guys, and that he believes the basic history that Hendrik has researched and laid out. To me, this gives a lot of credibility to Hendrik's research, knowing that someone else very knowledgeable in Wing Chun as well as martial art and Chinese history has checked it out and "vetted it".

I know that won't be enough for a lot of you. But its enough for me! Good going Hendrik! Keep up the good work!

Now go buy the latest issue of WCI to see what I'm talking about!

Thanks!

Also, look at Roberts clarification on what he means by structure !




If you have not seen this Sergio video yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yu3f...=youtube_gdata








More facts on ancient Wck history and art will be released to public soon. It will open up a new paradigm.

And here on the facts of yjkym just has been released

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sk-2...e=youtube_gdat

[KPM]

Yuen Kay San didn't openly teach his system in Fatshan, in fact he was quite secretive. I believe he only shared some stuff with Yip Man and Wong Jing, and Sum Nung was the only disciple to have learnt everything from him. so I am not sure how Jiu Wan would have known what YKS knew or not knew.

This is a good point. I have also read in multiple places that Sum Nung was the only disciple of YKS to learn his whole system.


Fung Wah was one of Leung Jan's student. http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...?n=WCP.FungWah

Ok. Then this begs the question.....if Fung Wah was a student of Leung Jan, then his name and reputation in any lineage chart would have been just as good as Leung Bik. So why change the name or story at all? Fung Wah would have been the same generation as Chan Wah Shun or Leung Bik and so just as valid as Yip Man's teacher.

[hunt1]

goofed up reply now below

[hunt1]

[QUOTE=KPM;1262330]Yuen Kay San didn't openly teach his system in Fatshan, in fact he was quite secretive. I believe he only shared some stuff with Yip Man and Wong Jing, and Sum Nung was the only disciple to have learnt everything from him. so I am not sure how Jiu Wan would have known what YKS knew or not knew.

This is a good point. I have also read in multiple places that Sum Nung was the only disciple of YKS to learn his whole system.


Always surprises me how educated people will ignore facts for fantasy when it fits their own needs and ego. So many stories have propped up through the years about how much better teacher A was than Yip Man or how Yip learned all his advanced stuff from teacher B. These stories always seem to pop up after the eyewitnesses have died. For example Yui Kai,told many stories about watching his father Yui Choi train with ,including doing chi sao with, YKS and Yip Man a NG Chung So's school Jui Chow and Jui Wan also trained there. In Fatshan no one did wing chun in isolation. You can not get good at martial arts in isolation and the old masters knew that. Pan Nam also told similar stories about the wing chun masters spending time together .


Huge difference between Sifu level knowledge and ability and training with/sharing with others of your same level and being a student. You do not need to be my student to understand what I am doing if your knowledge and ability is of a similar or higher level.

Also what magical powers do you credit YKS with? You must believe he has some otherwise all this A really learned from B and not C stuff is nonsense. Humans are humans all have the same physical possibilities no more no less. Your system can be no better or worse than mine unless you limit yourself or I limit myself. The only difference is in body structure. you use the body the way it was designed or you don't. Leung Ting slant piling stuff is example of don't. Knees so close they touch is example of don't.

[hunt1]

Fung Wah was one of Leung Jan's student. http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...?n=WCP.FungWah

Ok. Then this begs the question.....if Fung Wah was a student of Leung Jan, then his name and reputation in any lineage chart would have been just as good as Leung Bik. So why change the name or story at all? Fung Wah would have been the same generation as Chan Wah Shun or Leung Bik and so just as valid as Yip Man's teacher.[/QUOTE]


Since we weren't there we can answer this question. Yip Man's legacy has been tarnished by jealousy and in fighting. Many have tried to cash in on his name or claimed their wing chun is better than Yips so they could cash in that way. None of these controversies occurred while Yip and Jui Wan were still alive funny how that is. Kwok Fu and Lan Gai had different stories than Sum Nung. Why do you credit SN with 100% truth and Yip's students false?

Yui Kai knew both YKS and YM why ignore his eyewitness accounts?

If you are going to claim biased stories as facts then you had better deal with all the facts and all the stories not just cherry pick those that serve your personal beliefs or goals.

[hunt1]

Anyone know what these "signatures" are? Are they simply personalizations? thanks.

Traditionally a teacher would place a subtle signature in the forms he taught so others would be able to identify true students from out door or occasional students. Many of Yip Mans students placed signatures in their forms as well. A signature can be many things from a little hitch in the huen sau to a specific section of the knife or bui jee form.

For example I could say I learned from Ho Kam Ming but Joy would know I was full of it with in 10 seconds of my opening of a form.

[hunt1]

This is interesting. What I am wondering is that what Yip Man taught in HK changed a great deal over the tme he was in HK forms changed drills changed and so forth, and that his early guys like Leung Sheung did look much more like Foshan wing chun and what YKS was teaching and seemed to evolved from there so when exactly did JW begin training with YM? Was it early days or later days?

This is a good question and one I can't answer I wasn't there. The first time I was told about Jui Wan and Yip Man was in 1983. I can't even tell you if all of my memories are correct. As I recall 2 wing chun sifu's from Hong Kong were visiting my teacher,an old friend and classmate of theirs. They were talking about Jui Wan's school and funny stories about some of Yip Man's visits to the school. I would only get the occasional translation. Neither Yip nor Jui Wan showed everything to regular students. So many may never have learned the differences. The differences seemed to have to do with higher level understandings and applications more than basic forms and drill's.

I was given the impression that Yip opened up more as time went on and showed more of the "Leung Bik" influence.

[hunt1]

Aaahhhh, ok. Got it, thanks hunt1.
So from your example...you and Joy are from same lineage but different sifu's (?)

Exactly, and the way I perform would tell that to Joy no matter what I say to the contrary.

[KPM]

Hey hunt1!


Always surprises me how educated people will ignore facts for fantasy when it fits their own needs and ego.

Excuse me, but I don't consider it fantasy and it has nothing to do with ego. I look at what seems to fit things together the best. So how about you lay out the facts as you see them for us and we can all consider them?


So many stories have propped up through the years about how much better teacher A was than Yip Man or how Yip learned all his advanced stuff from teacher B.

Its hard to know what to believe. Old Kung Fu guys have always been a bit secretive. Old Kung Fu guys have always had a tendency to make up stories and legends to give credibility to what they do. Then you have someone like Leung Ting writing "Roots & Branches" and presenting a lot of totally screwed up information. And now we're several generations removed from it all and if anything at all was recorded, it was in Chinese!

You do not need to be my student to understand what I am doing if your knowledge and ability is of a similar or higher level.

Good point!

Your system can be no better or worse than mine unless you limit yourself or I limit myself. The only difference is in body structure. you use the body the way it was designed or you don't.

Another good point!

I guess the whole Leung Bik fabrication has been such a source of interest and contention for so long because a certain someone used it to justify the existence of an entire Wing Chun method that was a significant departure from what Yip Man taught everyone else.