Latest WCI and WCK history

[Vajramusti]

Traditionally a teacher would place a subtle signature in the forms he taught so others would be able to identify true students from out door or occasional students. Many of Yip Mans students placed signatures in their forms as well. A signature can be many things from a little hitch in the huen sau to a specific section of the knife or bui jee form.

For example I could say I learned from Ho Kam Ming but Joy would know I was full of it with in 10 seconds of my opening of a form.

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Good experienced people have their on little signatures in their forms. and in their chi sao.

Ho Kam Ming and Augustine Fong have their own unique features in their forms and they have reasons for what they do..

[hunt1]

[QUOTE=KPM;1262409]Hey hunt1!


Always surprises me how educated people will ignore facts for fantasy when it fits their own needs and ego.

Excuse me, but I don't consider it fantasy and it has nothing to do with ego. I look at what seems to fit things together the best. So how about you lay out the facts as you see them for us and we can all consider them?


Was not referring to you just a general observation. Many highly educated people learn wing chun but when it comes to the history they act like ignorant dark age peasants believe myth and fantasy ignoring any facts that contradict what they have been taught by their teacher. They seem to forget Leung Jan ,Yip Man ,YKS, SN , etc were not and are not infallible gods but just men with the same faults as the rest of us including shoveling the BS when it suits.

[KPM]

Was not referring to you just a general observation.

Ok. No problem! But I'd still like to see you lay out the facts as you know them to help with some of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that is Wing Chun history!

[PalmStriker]

Do not see YKS/Yui Choi signature in Master Yip Hong Kong style Wing Chun but do see Gulo Leung/Fung style signature. http://www.apricotforesthall.com/AKWCleungjan.html

[KPM]

Do not see YKS/Yui Choi signature in Master Yip Hong Kong style Wing Chun but do see Gulo Leung/Fung style signature. http://www.apricotforesthall.com/AKWCleungjan.html

I don't see that at all. Please elaborate.

[PalmStriker]

What I am speaking of is not that easy to spot unless you know what to look for. Mostly the masters who are or were alive to have been filmed or photographed are not usually showing publicly what they were secreting. That said, sometimes they have. A couple of years back I was carrying on a conversation (PM) with Kevin where he was doubtful of the fact that there are techniques in full sight, some modified to hide their real use/meaning. I was taught some of this, non-Hong Kong stlyle WingChun technique in the early 80's. I pointed out in online video frames to Kevin what I was talking about. One technique was flashed by Sifu Sergio, I think he was just letting anyone viewing the vid that knew of the technique (he abbreviated it without showing it outright) that he was privy to some closed door Bil Jee training). It was that vid where Kevin agreed with what I was saying about the combat/evasion nature of the style. All the different TCMA styles of Wingchun carry their unique signatures. Gulo Village style is about as secretive a lineage as is out there. Plan to download this e-Book soon to browse some history. http://www.apricotforesthall.com/ebook.html

[PalmStriker]

http://www.apricotforesthall.com/003_toc.html

[KPM]

What I am speaking of is not that easy to spot unless you know what to look for. Mostly the masters who are or were alive to have been filmed or photographed are not usually showing publicly what they were secreting. That said, sometimes they have. A couple of years back I was carrying on a conversation (PM) with Kevin where he was doubtful of the fact that there are techniques in full sight, some modified to hide their real use/meaning. I was taught some of this, non-Hong Kong stlyle WingChun technique in the early 80's. I pointed out in online video frames to Kevin what I was talking about. One technique was flashed by Sifu Sergio, I think he was just letting anyone viewing the vid that knew of the technique (he abbreviated it without showing it outright) that he was privy to some closed door Bil Jee training). It was that vid where Kevin agreed with what I was saying about the combat/evasion nature of the style. All the different TCMA styles of Wingchun carry their unique signatures. Gulo Village style is about as secretive a lineage as is out there. Plan to download this e-Book soon to browse some history. http://www.apricotforesthall.com/ebook.html

I studied Ku Lo Pin Sun for a few years with Jim Roselando. So I'm not talking out of the side of mouth when I say I don't see a Ku Lo signature in Yip Man's Wing Chun. I certainly see some YKS stuff, especially in his earlier students such as Leung Seung. But no Ku Lo. So again, you'll have to elaborate.

[PalmStriker]

Information in this link spells out the relationship that Sifu Robert Chu is referring to, Master Yip's accelerated skillset could very well have been the "Leung Bik" effect that was experienced by his fellow students in training. Makes sense considering the status of Master YKS. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuen_Kay_Shan

[KPM]

Master Yip's accelerated skillset could very well have been the "Leung Bik" effect that was experienced by his fellow students in training. Makes sense considering the status of Master YKS.

Ok. Now I'm confused. First you said this:

Do not see YKS/Yui Choi signature in Master Yip Hong Kong style Wing Chun but do see Gulo Leung/Fung style signature.

....which sounds to me like you are saying that you don't think there is YKS influence in Yip Man's WCK but that there is Ku Lo WCK influence. When I asked you to explain what you are seeing as Ku Lo influence, you post the above comment where now it seems you agree that it may have been YKS's influence that affected Yip Man's Wing Chun. So which is it? Is YKS in or out in your opinion?

[Hendrik]

Wait a little , a few weeks or months, DNA and history of Wck will be clear out with more and more information and facture evidence will surface in public domain.

Nothing comes from thin air, what exist can be traced.

[hunt1]

Was not referring to you just a general observation.

Ok. No problem! But I'd still like to see you lay out the facts as you know them to help with some of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that is Wing Chun history!

Keith, for me to examine WC History we have to understand some basic truths and facts about memory. Eyewitness accounts are actually very unreliable. Studies have shown that 2 people can witness the same thing and yet have completely different memories of the event. The other thing is that people remember things that never actually happened.

So taking this into account William Cheung could be totally truthful in his TWC stories yet his memory could be totally at odds with what he learned or was told by Yip Man. Sum Nung 's memory of what Yip learned from YKS could be equally false yet told with complete honesty. There fore we need to look at things that can be objectively determined and only give weight to stories told by long dead people when there is independent confirmation the more confirmation the better.

Start with Jui Wan's story of Yip's teaching being different in HK than in Fatshan and that Yip said it was due to Leung Bik. We know that what Yip taught his first students was like other Fatshan wing chun. We also know that some where in the 50's Yip's teaching changed. We can see that by looking at his students. This corresponds to Jiu Wan's statement Yip did the same wing chun as everyone else in fatshan but was doing something different when Jui Wan met up with Yip in HK around 1955.

Will move on to something else tomorrow.

[PalmStriker]

Ok. Now I'm confused. First you said this:

Do not see YKS/Yui Choi signature in Master Yip Hong Kong style Wing Chun but do see Gulo Leung/Fung style signature.

....which sounds to me like you are saying that you don't think there is YKS influence in Yip Man's WCK but that there is Ku Lo WCK influence. When I asked you to explain what you are seeing as Ku Lo influence, you post the above comment where now it seems you agree that it may have been YKS's influence that affected Yip Man's Wing Chun. So which is it? Is YKS in or out in your opinion?

Thanks for noting the about face. I don't see any distinct signature in the YKS/Yui Choi and Yip Man (Sui Lim Tao) for instance, but if YKS had only taught "sticky hands" or enough of an advantage that Yip Man used to defeat all his training brothers, that in itself could be the mysterious skill set evolution that took place at that time, not necessarily in Hong Kong. I will be interested to see how this plays out.

[hunt1]

This post is second part of my above post that started with problems of memory.

Another thing to I believe is never let anyone tell you what I see. No ignore the man behind the curtain stuff. People often are told to ignore what they see in favor of what they are told.

The YKS was Leung Bik theory has 2 parts. 1. YKS taught YM chi sao and 2. YKS taught YM his advanced techniques.

part 1. Sure maybe YKS taught YM the poon sau rolling we all know. It's possible . We know of 3 families that have done the rolling chi sao for decades. YKS,YM and Yui Choi. Older lines do different types of chi sao. We know YKS,YC and YM were friends that trained together. We have several different accounts of this and they are tied together as the 3 hero's of wing chun. They all trained at NG Chung So's school. We have different sources for this. So they were friends and training partners. If YKS came up with the rolling platform it is only natural that he would share it and develop it with his training partners. You could not design a 2 person training method alone you would need help and others to practice with. However this is different than teaching someone advanced techniques. Also we know Yip Man knew other forms of chi sao. Foe example 19 years ago Yip Ching showed me another chi sao platform his father taught him that would be recognized by anyone taught Kulo wing chun.

This is no different than someone teaching you the WT lat sao drills. you are learning a new training platform but not learning advanced techniques.

Advanced techniques next post

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=hunt1;1262742]This post is second part of my above post that started with problems of memory.

part 1. Sure maybe YKS taught YM the poon sau rolling we all know. It's possible .
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I doubt it. I know that they worked out some together and at one point IM accepted YKS hospitality.
YKS's older brother moved to VietNam and played a big role there . No signs of IM type of rolling platform
in YKS's brother's wing chun.

You can see Sum Nun's son's wc- quite different in stance and turns from Ip Man.

You can see the last video interview of one of the first IM fatshan students (Gwok..?)) ( besides Lun Gai).
That student rolled with YKS-and did quite well. He also told him not to show YKS real jong work.

IM's synthesis in wing chun IMO is really one of a kind. He was selective about who he did chi sao with.
For instance reportedly he did not do chi sao
with Moy Yat- whose kwan instruction was with chop sticks over dim sum.

Sloppy wing chun history is mostly the case despite Hendrik's soliloquies and Sergio's roving camera.
Leaving history aside truth remains elusive about who learned what and for how long from Ip Man.

I also find it humorous that folks who try to get to the bottom of IM's wc motions do not accept his
simple statements that he learned a lot from Leung Bik . His listing Chan Wah Son as his sifu speaks to IM
sticking to the custom of his time that your first teacher is listed as your sifu- even though you may learn from others.

IM is gone and cannot correct other's misstatements. I remain careful about tossing gossip around and calling it history.