Latest WCI and WCK history

[Daniel Fong]

New post. This time from Cho Gar Wing Chun.

《班中正旦金曹家詠春公告》

鑒於近日在網上，Hendrik Santo 未經曹家曹德勝公後人認可，公然在網上以“易金詠春傳人及曹家詠春後人自居”，並對曹家所傳拳法胡亂釋意， 更編造曹家歷史，無視曹家和易家的後人，此等行為、甚為可卑，有違武德。

經本派查證，Hendrik Santo實非易金或曹家傳人。其所言所述關於正旦金/易金祖師或曹德勝曹公家的歷史或拳理都與事實不同，若因聽信其言而導致誤學誤用，一切後果則與 本派無關。

由於正旦金曹家詠春拳、歷來只內傳，並不向外界公開，一向比較低調，為了尊重曹家意願，所以對其所言拳理之 謬誤，不作任何公開批審。

如對曹家詠春拳法及歷史有興趣者，可直接與本派中國海外掌門宗師-古財華師傅。古財華師傅盡得曹賢安公晚年傾囊相授唯一衣缽傳人，並獲中國曹家曹德勝公之孫曹柏倫師傅、唯一 承認授權的海外班中正旦金曹家詠春代表。

特此公告！

*** Solemn Statement ***

“Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun Announcement Bulletin”

Recently Mr. (Hendrik Santo) has been posting about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam) and Cho family arts, without the recognition of the Cho Family, openly on the Internet.

He has led the public to believe that he himself is "Yik Kam Wing Chun’s successor and Cho Ga Wing Chun’s only inheritor". He has presented wrong information concerning the Ban Chung Wing Chun system, irresponsibly fabricating the Cho family history whilst ignoring the presence of Cho family descendants. Such behavior is considered rude and not in line with Martial Art ethics.

After verification by the Cho family, we feel the need to inform the public that Mr. Hendrik Santo is neither related to nor does he have any relationship with the Cho family successors. All he has said about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam), Cho Dak Sing, Cho family history or Cho family martial art theory are far from the truth. If anyone wishes to practice or listen to any of Mr. Hendrik Santo’s teachings, that’s all well and good but it has nothing to do with Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun .

As over the years Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun has only been inherited privately and passed down in a traditional way, there is not much exposed to the public. All theory and teaching of our kung fu is for students only. Therefore we ask for understanding and respect from the public as to why we are such a mystery. However, if anyone is interested to know more about the history of Wing Chun of the Cho Family you can directly meet up with our Master – Grand Master Ku Choi Wah.

GM Ku was the sole inheritor of Great Grand Master Cho Yin On (in his later years) and later Master Ku was authorized by Cho Dak Sing’s grandson, Cho Bak Lin(曹柏伦), as the overseas Master and Ban Chung Zhen Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun representative. The Cho Family has therefore recognized Master Ku.

Notice to all public!

[KPM]

From my perspective you noticed something we all did years ago.

Yep! I noticed it then and it hasn't gone away. Still there. Hasn't changed.

TWC and HFY people have met and compared notes, including sifu Dale Vitts visiting the HFY lineage holder sifu Garrett Gee. Their conclusion was different than yours in the similarities of the arts. We accept their conclusion.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't JP and Billy admit that there are similarities between HFY and TWC that go beyond other systems of WCK? Seems I remember quoting JP to that effect? So just what conclusion has been reached by the HFY masses? That despite these similarities they don't think there is any relationship between them beyond a common origin 150 years ago? What was this based upon? Because the logic I've laid out is pretty simple. If the conclusion is that even though HFY & TWC are more similar to each other than other forms of WCK, they are NOT more closely related, then there needs to be something to support that conclusion because it goes against basic logical analysis. If you have something to support that conclusion, then you should have spoken up several pages ago because it would have prevented a lot back and forth posts!

Now you are "under attack" somehow.

Ok. Maybe "attack" was a strong word. But I made a simple statement and was "set upon" (is that any better?) by 4 different HFY guys. Go back and reread Savi's post. It wasn't exactly the "friendliest" of responses!

Yes you are acting like a drama queen.

The HFY guys are pretty notorious for going after someone with religious-like fervor when they question something from the system and yet I'm a "drama queen" for taking up for my viewpoint? Whatever dude!


http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...rigin-theories

Here I can see around 11 years ago, Keith had the same kind of questions. And we also see that he has read the HFY book. Anyway interesting thread.

Yes! Interesting thread. Another good case of "thread necromancy"! Thanks for pointing it out. I didn't have time to get to the Dale Vits part, but this caught my eye on page 2. From an old friend, Rene Ritchie:

"Do you think it is possible for a martial art particular to the secret societies that has been hidden from the public (but used to train an army to fight in rebellion against the Cheng) to remain hidden from and unseen by the public even after those societies have largely disbanded and the primary reason for secrecy (fall of the Ching dynasty) has ended?"

Almost anything is possible. That being the case, all we can realistically do, as you say, is determine what is *more likely* as opposed to *less likely*.

If WCK was really an art trained by a large number of people in the secret societies (as opposed to a small fringe group on the Red Junks), then it likely would still have spread prior to and beyond the Red Junks within the Societies and today be found in Taiwan and overseas much as Hung fist and other Society arts are.

Look at one of the most popular WCK origin myths - that it was created to defeat the more common arts leaked to the Manchu so that soldiers could be trained better/faster and overthrow the Qing.

Yet they don't spread it, they don't train the militias, and they don't overthrow the Qing? Either that wasn't what WCK was created for, or the implementation was ineffective to the point of, well, not being the work of the brightest minds out there.

Again, IMHO, everyone can and will have theories, from Shaolin to Wudang, from English sailors bringing in western boxing to a little girl fighting off a bully, and that's great. The more theories, the more attention, the more discussion, but in terms of *HISTORY*, we only *KNOW* so much, and the rest, no matter how rational or romantic, is conjecture, and personally I like to keep my conjecture as grounded as possible.

We know the Red Junk had WCK aboard in the 1850s. We've thusfar not found WCK stemming from anywhere else, any earlier. It may have, maybe it even did, but there's nothing to indicate it yet, much less support it. We have a reasonably good idea what WCK looked like back to that point, what shapes it used and how it generated power (which are often considered the mapping points of an MA), and we know what other arts were around at that point in that area. Hopefully that will lead us someplace, and if its to where Hendrik or the VTM or someone else is pointing, fair enough, and if not, hopefully that will be just as acceptable to everyone who is interested not in a particular theory, but to the real origins of our art.

And here we are over 10 years later and NO ONE else has emerged teaching HFY or having any knowledge of HFY other than Garrett Gee and his students. Before you guys jump on me again, I'm simply stating another fact. Everyone is free to reach their own conclusions! I was perfectly happy leaving things as they were until these last couple of posts by Billy and WayF. You keep pushing me and I'll push back. Maybe that's because I'm such a "drama queen."

[gumgongsao]

Keith,

Wing Chun is a very small community. Once someone talks badly and creates rumors behind others backs, it does't take long before everybody knows about this person. About 15 years ago, a stranger (that's the same stranger recently walked in SCWC school to baisee in HK) also visited our school for the first time. Nobody knew anything about this stranger before that time. The impression we got from this stranger at that time, was very outspoken and c0cky. He made comments about everybody with a very negative tone and badly attacked Moy Yat, William Cheung, Randy Williams, Augustine Fong and many other well known Sifus on the lists and so on. Wow! that's exactly everybody's reaction at that time. In everybody's minds at that time was...what's going on and what's wrong with this guy who came to our school shooting off his mouth about almost every Sifu and school in the WC community. We just couldn't understand that and where this guy came from and how he could have such a strong opinion on everything about everybody.

Basically we don't care about what this stranger said, we are all mature adults. This stranger was acting like a good friend to our school in the beginning and we treated him as a guest. A few years later... we found out he was creating rumors and stories attacking two schools in particular TWC and HFY. So, we had three instructors who decided to pay this stranger a visit to find out why all these rumors were created by him. At first he agreed to meet up with us in LA, over 3 days, many excuses, he never showed up for the meeting. But the rumors and gossip created and spread by this stranger about this Sifu and that Sifu, this lineage and that lineage etc...never stopped for a moment.

So, what does this story have to do with you KPM? Well, at first nothing, but your behavior and your attitude and your connection with him reminds me of this stranger. Since, this stranger didn't show up for our visit. We already decided to let it rest for over a decade. We don't care or talk about him or what he has been doing all these years. Many of our members still vividly remember this stranger when he came to visit our school twice and copied our school materials and publicized as his own without giving credit to the original source. That type of behavior is being repeated as the public can see with the latest problem this stranger caused the SCWC school in HK as well.

So, Keith...get this straight, don't assume everybody has the same level of intelligence as you. Others may have more. That's why others choose to train for good health. Btw, no joke! When you're getting tired of your key board, there are plenty of wooden dummies and punching bags around to spend your time with. Maybe a beer afterward? Who knows... it's time to make my 4 yrs old look beautiful just like you, Miss America!

Sifu Billy Lau

[BPWT..]

@ Wayfaring: thanks for the link; I'll have a read, these old threads are often gems.

@ Billy: you sound kinda crazy. KPM's a friendly guy who keeps things polite and sensible and, like others, is interested to learn more and hear more about WCK. If you disagree with what he says, explain why - no need to tell us protracted stories about searching for strangers.

We've had some pretty tall tales recently about Master GG healing people with chi, gifts of jade jewelry, etc.

Why can't people simply talk about what GG teaches and then we discuss from there?

[BPWT..]

About halfway through the thread Wayfaring linked to. Three observations and/or questions:

1. 10 years ago people shared way more on this forum - some great info given then.
2. What happened to Rene Richie?
3. Was there some link between HFY and the VTM?

[KPM]

Wow! And I'm the "drama queen"?? Nice little tidbit here Billy: So, Keith...get this straight, don't assume everybody has the same level of intelligence as you. Others may have more. Might have been nice if you had applied your superior intelligence to actually refuting the logic of what I have been saying.

Keith,

Wing Chun is a very small community. Once someone talks badly and creates rumors behind others backs, it does't take long before everybody knows about this person. About 15 years ago, a stranger (that's the same stranger recently walked in SCWC school to baisee in HK) also visited our school for the first time. Nobody knew anything about this stranger before that time. The impression we got from this stranger at that time, was very outspoken and c0cky. He made comments about everybody with a very negative tone and badly attacked Moy Yat, William Cheung, Randy Williams, Augustine Fong and many other well known Sifus on the lists and so on. Wow! that's exactly everybody's reaction at that time. In everybody's minds at that time was...what's going on and what's wrong with this guy who came to our school shooting off his mouth about almost every Sifu and school in the WC community. We just couldn't understand that and where this guy came from and how he could have such a strong opinion on everything about everybody.

Basically we don't care about what this stranger said, we are all mature adults. This stranger was acting like a good friend to our school in the beginning and we treated him as a guest. A few years later... we found out he was creating rumors and stories attacking two schools in particular TWC and HFY. So, we had three instructors who decided to pay this stranger a visit to find out why all these rumors were created by him. At first he agreed to meet up with us in LA, over 3 days, many excuses, he never showed up for the meeting. But the rumors and gossip created and spread by this stranger about this Sifu and that Sifu, this lineage and that lineage etc...never stopped for a moment.

So, what does this story have to do with you KPM? Well, at first nothing, but your behavior and your attitude and your connection with him reminds me of this stranger. Since, this stranger didn't show up for our visit. We already decided to let it rest for over a decade. We don't care or talk about him or what he has been doing all these years. Many of our members still vividly remember this stranger when he came to visit our school twice and copied our school materials and publicized as his own without giving credit to the original source. That type of behavior is being repeated as the public can see with the latest problem this stranger caused the SCWC school in HK as well.

That's why others choose to train for good health. Btw, no joke! When you're getting tired of your key board, there are plenty of wooden dummies and punching bags around to spend your time with. Maybe a beer afterward? Who knows... it's time to make my 4 yrs old look beautiful just like you, Miss America!

Sifu Billy Lau

[KPM]

About halfway through the thread Wayfaring linked to. Three observations and/or questions:

1. 10 years ago people shared way more on this forum - some great info given then.
2. What happened to Rene Richie?
3. Was there some link between HFY and the VTM?

This forum used to have LOTS of great info. People like John Crescione, Rene Ritchie, Phil Redmond, Robert Chu, Jim Roselando and others posted regularly. But non-sense like the stuff from the PB guys in the not so distance past and like from the HFY guys who pitch a huge fit when someone says something they don't like drove a lot of good people away. They simply got tired of the BS. I've gotten tired of it to at various times and left for periods. Some longer than others. Then I come back. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment!

Rene Ritchie seems to have drifted away from his Wing Chun practice. Which is a shame because he was a great researcher. His book is the only published info on the Yuen Kay Shan system that I am aware of.

When Garrett Gee "went public" he did it with Benny Meng's marketing assistance. Garrett Gee had been teaching relatively privately up until that time and the VTM became one of his first "public" schools with Benny Meng as one of his first public representatives. The guys running the HFY school in Arizona were originally Benny Meng's students at the VTM. I was present at the "Friendship Seminar" at the VTM when Garrett Gee and HFY were formally "introduced to the public." That's how they marketed it at the time! I think this was 2000 or 2001? Garrett Gee was still pretty "tight lipped" and wouldn't demo a lot. I was disappointed because I was very interested in HFY at the time. I remember after the seminar was over finding out that Sifu Gee had held a "private" HFY seminar for Benny's students that was kept quite at the time because none of the rest of us were invited. Anyway, things eventually kind of soured between Gee and Meng, but many of the current HFY guys started out at the VTM.

[KPM]

New post. This time from Cho Gar Wing Chun.

*** Solemn Statement ***

“Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun Announcement Bulletin”

Recently Mr. (Hendrik Santo) has been posting about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam) and Cho family arts, without the recognition of the Cho Family, openly on the Internet.

He has led the public to believe that he himself is "Yik Kam Wing Chun’s successor and Cho Ga Wing Chun’s only inheritor". !

Maybe I missed something somewhere, but I have known Hendrik on-line now for many years and I don't recall him every claiming to be "Yik Kam's successor" or "Cho Ga's only inheritor." In fact, he seemed to me to distance himself from the Cho Ga WCK practitioners. I always assumed this was because the Cho family had added in so many other things to the original Yik Kam system that Hendrik didn't quite approve of. I could be wrong. Hendrik irritates the hell out of me at times, but this concerted approach to saying he didn't learn the entire YK SLT form, and now that he is denounced by the Cho Ga WCK guys just seems a little over the top to me. Why is there this campaign against Hendrik?

[Savi]

Hello Keith,

I have never met you Keith. I have met Billy on a couple occasions during my trips to CA and he is a really nice guy, & I also believe that you are actually a fair and reasonable person.

I have my disagreements regarding your point of view and how you communicate, and I'm sure you say the same about me. That is fine that you don't ask for clarification on alternate points. It's totally fine that you are not open to other points of view. You have already made up your mind on how you characterize me and my brothers, which makes communication all the more difficult.

Let's be honest with the exaggeration. It's a stretch to say that I and my brothers ganged up on you. If there is something I truly disagree with then I make the choice to act on my own terms. Regardless how this started, I only speak for myself and act on my own accord. Stop with the "HFY guys" rhetoric.

It's pretty clear that old energy still exists but we can always try to move forward from it by learning how not to trigger those old feelings from the past unless you want to repeat history. The blame game and misrepresentations of people can stop if we can all agree to do that.

I think it looks like everybody is saying what they already want to say, agree or disagree, understand or don't understand. IMO it's ok in this respect. If any of us end up in each others company we can go out for beer and wings or something.

[Wayfaring]

This forum used to have LOTS of great info. People like John Crescione, Rene Ritchie, Phil Redmond, Robert Chu, Jim Roselando and others posted regularly. But non-sense like the stuff from the PB guys in the not so distance past and like from the HFY guys who pitch a huge fit when someone says something they don't like drove a lot of good people away. They simply got tired of the BS. I've gotten tired of it to at various times and left for periods. Some longer than others. Then I come back. I guess I'm a glutton for punishment!

That's a lot of blame you are laying there. Many of those you listed still post here occasionally, leave and come back. A couple were banned. Niehoff and Parlatti. A Robert Chu student and a TWC sifu who cross-trained MMA and catch wrestling. A lot of both HFY and TWC people I know don't post here much any more due to antics like are on display in this thread. The PB guys don't post here any more after Shawn Obasi posted that "chi sau" video.

Back then, like now, people argued a lot.

Rene Ritchie seems to have drifted away from his Wing Chun practice. Which is a shame because he was a great researcher. His book is the only published info on the Yuen Kay Shan system that I am aware of.

So by logic that would be the reason he doesn't post here any more. But hey, maybe me pitching a fit in the past drove him completely away from wing chun. Who knows?

When Garrett Gee "went public" he did it with Benny Meng's marketing assistance. Garrett Gee had been teaching relatively privately up until that time and the VTM became one of his first "public" schools with Benny Meng as one of his first public representatives.

You know, this is all IMO, not speaking for anyone else here, but I feel that the flim-flam marketing angle was all Benny Meng. Garrett Gee is simply not like that at all. So I guess if we have to take flak over that association we deserve it. But to me that is just not what HFY is about at all.

Honestly these are all old negative energies here. Maybe that's what I'm getting from Keith as the time of his interaction maybe those energies were real then.

[Eric_H]

The guys running the HFY school in Arizona were originally Benny Meng's students at the VTM.

No. Currently, the only official Hung Fa Kwoon in AZ is run by Sifu Mark Jones who was not a student of B. Meng. None of the associate club instructors were students of him either.

Previously there was a "Meng's Martial Arts" school where some of us studied under Sifu Richard Loewenhagen (who was at one time a direct student of B. Meng) but that school closed somewhere around 2006-2007 when Sifu Loewenhagen went into semi retirement.

AFAIK, there are no active HFY students/teachers who studied at the VTM except maybe one or two that went to a workshop.

[KPM]

I have never met you Keith. I have met Billy on a couple occasions during my trips to CA and he is a really nice guy, & I also believe that you are actually a fair and reasonable person.

Thank you Savi. I may have my moments like anyone else, but for the most part I try to stay fair and reasonable!

I have my disagreements regarding your point of view and how you communicate, and I'm sure you say the same about me.

Yes, and there's nothing wrong with that! If everyone agreed on things we wouldn't have anything to talk about!

That is fine that you don't ask for clarification on alternate points. It's totally fine that you are not open to other points of view. You have already made up your mind on how you characterize me and my brothers, which makes communication all the more difficult.

Well, here is where I must disagree. Because I could say exactly the same thing about you or JP or Billy. It just depends upon your perspective doesn't it? No one asked for clarification on my points either, now did they? None of the three of you were very open to my point of view of comparing similarities rather than differences to arrive at conclusions about how closely related things are. None of you even attempted to challenge the logic I was using. Billy had no answer when I asked him why my viewpoint was any less valid than his own. Be careful pointing fingers because they often point right back at you!

Let's be honest with the exaggeration. It's a stretch to say that I and my brothers ganged up on you.

Well let's see. I made a pretty simple statement and suddenly I had three different HFY brothers telling me how wrong I was. You were not exactly polite at the time. What would you call it? Go back and reread all the pretty nasty things you said about me.


It's pretty clear that old energy still exists but we can always try to move forward from it by learning how not to trigger those old feelings from the past unless you want to repeat history. The blame game and misrepresentations of people can stop if we can all agree to do that.

I agree 100%. Again, this whole thing started because I stated some pretty simple facts. No "myths". No agenda. No politics. No blame. No misrepresentations. I simply stated that HFY and TWC appeared to be related to each other and that there were problems with TWC's origin story. I didn't mean that as a trigger for anyone! I wasn't blaming anyone of anything.


I think it looks like everybody is saying what they already want to say, agree or disagree, understand or don't understand. IMO it's ok in this respect. If any of us end up in each others company we can go out for beer and wings or something.

No doubt! I'm sure we could go out and have a great time together!

[KPM]

That's a lot of blame you are laying there. .

Ok. That's a fair statement. I'm guilty of a pretty broad generalization there! I'm sure there are lots of reasons people stopped coming here. And most certainly the PB guys and the HFY brethren were not the only ones causing some mayhem. I'm pretty sure I participated in some mayhem myself.

[KPM]

No. Currently, the only official Hung Fa Kwoon in AZ is run by Sifu Mark Jones who was not a student of B. Meng. None of the associate club instructors were students of him either.

Previously there was a "Meng's Martial Arts" school where some of us studied under Sifu Richard Loewenhagen (who was at one time a direct student of B. Meng) but that school closed somewhere around 2006-2007 when Sifu Loewenhagen went into semi retirement.

AFAIK, there are no active HFY students/teachers who studied at the VTM except maybe one or two that went to a workshop.

Thanks for the corrections Eric! I didn't realize Loewenhagen had moved on.

[GlennR]

Ok. That's a fair statement. I'm guilty of a pretty broad generalization there! I'm sure there are lots of reasons people stopped coming here. And most certainly the PB guys and the HFY brethren were not the only ones causing some mayhem. I'm pretty sure I participated in some mayhem myself.

Hey, i think most people here are guilty as charged as well (looks in mirror)

Yep, lost lots of good folks over the years but, you know what, maybe there was nothing left to say or impart after a period of time..........

I notice anerlich isnt posting anymore (pity), i think he's possibly moved on as well, its the nature of things i guess, people come and go...

FWIW Keith, i had no problem with you saying TWC and HFY look similar, its just an observation after all