Latest WCI and WCK history

[Daniel Fong]

If you see the comment list on Sifu Sergio Youtube video, See what Hendrik commented. He is 1000delights. 1000delight is commenting on 1894 instead of 1890 kuits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVDA...=youtube_gdata

As what Sifu Sergio mentioning in his youtubes on the True Origin of wck, I doubt what he mentioned is the full writings on 1890. where does it come from? Is it through proper channel or Improper channel? It seems that this is the main treasure of Snake Crane Wing Chun, and this document isn't supposed to be disclosed to public, Even if had to open to public, why must it be Sifu Sergio or Hendrik? Why not Sifu Wayne Yung? The Chairman of SCWC himself? How did they get the secret book? That is the main point. Sifu Yung just briefing question why Robert Chu and Jim Roselando got credits in the videos, and Hendrik responds quickly KFO here on the other thread "Why Robert Chu and Roselando getting credibility in Sifu Sergio videos"... This totally reflects who is the background mastermind on the story of the whole True WCK Origin. Why not Sifu Sergio but Hendrik to explain on that issue? Trying to cover up?

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...Sergio-YouTube

Please read Sifu Yung last baisee posting last night, It seems that they go to baisee and take the document, then quit the Mun, and go to Sifu Sergio, open to the public. The content in the videos seems from the ebook, but there is no credibility mention on Sifu Yung on the research part, but instead credited Robert Chu & Jim Roselando whom Sifu Yung never works with. It also show someone trying to capture the whole ebook which co-authored with Sifu Yung without his attention or any consent,

Coming back to Sifu Sergio, because Sifu Yung is a low profile man, and wouldn't want involving in anything. Interestingly in the last few statements in the baisee posting show something, seem like what they shown is not the correct document they expected. It hints up the document they got is written in Simplified character, and SI units are being used there.

Hello? In 1890, the chinese wording should be written in traditional character, more complicated and SI units not even known that time in China. Why Sifu Yung bring these points out to RCHS? Like the baisee posting, Sifu Yung brings out a point for those reseachers. Don't do any improper way or any other bad means to achieve what they want.

Actually if you see in the PDFs in Slideshare.net , Sifu Yung had shared a lot in the past, and also bring out a lot in the ebook.

[LFJ]

1984 instead of 1890 kuits.

1984? Easy mistake to make.

[Paddington]

Like noticed , many people involved in Wing Chun are infantile in their behavior , all thous " my lineage, history, teacher , style, ect" is better than yours is typical childish behavior . In all my time I've met only one person who actually wants to be surpassed by his students . About Hendrik , my impression is that he has been attacked just because he has much more public attention than other Cho family members .

Some people have questioned Hendrik's motives and have come up with all sorts of answers. I too have thought about Hendrik's motives but ultimately can only judge him on his actions towards me. And what actions might those be? I'll tell you, he has sent me personal messages to clarify points and answer questions I have made, recorded and posted videos that directly addressed questions I have put to him and my expressed want for visual examples and he also helped me to overcome injuries by suggesting certain exercises. He has not asked for one penny from me for his time and effort. I guess time will tell what true motives are out there and I must say, I find Sergio and his modus operandi questionable.

Someone said elsewhere on these boards that it is different in this 'Internet age'. I agree that it is different but perhaps for other reasons too. Such as, for example, there being a significant number of us in the English speaking world who care little for lineage titleship and who want to have as wider and deeper understanding of wing chun as is possible; these are the ones from different lineages meeting up privately at each others homes to train and share, these are the ones who put the time in and actually do hours of training each and every day despite all the sacrifices that entails, particularly in our type of culture.

I do very much look forwards to reading about the Cho family wing chun and I hope they can cease hostilities and present some of their ideas to us themselves. I think this is what has been so frustrating to many on these forums; by saying come visit us to find out you effectively 'go public' so if that precedent is being made, then why not tell us via the Internet and save the carbon footprint that all that traveling entails.

[Paddington]

[...]
Actually if you see in the PDFs in Slideshare.net , Sifu Yung had shared a lot in the past, and also bring out a lot in the ebook.

Could you point me to those documents please and the other ebook you mention if it is an additional item to the ones I quote above?

[Daniel Fong]

Could you point me to those documents please and the other ebook you mention if it is an additional item to the ones I quote above?

For your reference. All the information are in this slideshare.net under the same account. The ebook also there, 1 and 2.
http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/in...handtechniques

[theo]

From the handwritten letters Hendrik showed, Hendrik is authorized to teach Cho family WCK as taught by his sifu Cho Hung Choy. Cho Hung Choy said this himself in the letter. Hendrik also has shown he has been teaching the Cho WCK he was taught since at least 16 years ago. There is video of him doing the entire form at least 16 years ago. If his sifu said he could represent and teach Cho WCK and multiple witnesses have seen him do the whole set, that seems pretty complete wck to me.

Also why would they publish an ebook, heavily promote the ebook, which clearly showing who are the authors, if the original intent is to steal information? If you wanted to steal info, why would you tell everyone where you got it? Anybody could pick it up and use that info. The problem is, if you try to pretend it's yours, anyone can look it up and find it came from there. I don't see anyone changing the kuit, just giving their interpretation of it. Lastly, Jim and others have done research on the Emei connection as well, many years before the ebook was even published, so if Sergio's using that info, why not mention it?

If Hendrik is now stating he is teaching his self-created "HendrikWing Chun Kuen" then I don;t think people would have an issue with that but he hasn't. He is misrepresenting himself as a strict lineage Teacher of Wing Chun of the Emei / Snake/ Crane lines also which he is not and therefore is the issue on hand here.

Wayne is talking about a breach of trust placed in this person not so much what he is or is not sharing. Even so, to share something which belongs to another without citing that source is not right. Also we have traditions within the Martial Arts for a reason and that is to protect knowledge from being given out to all and sundry, misinterpreted and then changed from it's original essence until the original teachings become lost. Wayne is simply trying to protect his tradition. Would any of you not do the same?

[KPM]

If you see the comment list on Sifu Sergio Youtube video, See what Hendrik commented. He is 1000delights. 1000delight is commenting on 1894 instead of 1890 kuits.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zVDA...=youtube_gdata

You are right. Hendrik wrote:

and the 1894 kuit describing the "snake" part of SNT in this part 2 of sifu Sergio YouTube. S# is 1894 from the snake crane lineage document Y# is 1850 from the yik kam lineage document

That certainly doesn't seem like a "typo" to me!

How did they get the secret book? That is the main point. Sifu Yung just briefing question why Robert Chu and Jim Roselando got credits in the videos, and Hendrik responds quickly KFO here on the other thread "Why Robert Chu and Roselando getting credibility in Sifu Sergio videos"...

Again, I have to agree. If Sifu Yung supplied a lot of the information being used from his SCWCK writings, then he certainly should have gotten credit along side Robert Chu and Jim Roselando. But that may have just been an unfortunate oversight.

[Jim Roselando]

1: 1894 Wrong Year Issue

Hendrik has published numerous articles with Wayne and both stated 1890. Hendrik also has countless Youtube videos talking about 1890/1854/1850. Dozens of times I can give examples of 1890 but the one place it is mis-written as 1894 that means something sinister is going on? Please! ROFLOL

BTW: The 1894 reply has been removed so one less thing for the girls to fight over!


2: Wayne Wants Credit Issue

Sergio's video's are just that. Sergio's videos. In part two of the True History video's, Sergio was nice enough to give credit to Wayne as being the person who brought the S&C art out to the public. The truth is, Sergio doesn't have to give anyone credit and if he does its solely his own choice. Don't publish information if you don't want people to use it or quote it.

Ex: I was mentioned in part one but not part two. Should I start complaining Why? Why? Why?.... Who cares! Its pubic info being discussed. Again, Sergio didn't have to give anyone credit so Wayne should actually thank him rather than complain as Sergio's videos are very popular and they will help others find Wayne that may not have ever found him....


3: The Real Issue

I still say: All this is a smoke screen. NOBODY, I repeat, NOBODY can point to any of these guys having any issues until Sergio came in the picture. Wayne didn't want his info shared with Sergio, which it never was (btw: thats the ironic part of this whole mess), and then Hendrik announced his public break up on the forums to Wayne's surprise. (which should have been kept between them but...). After that, Wayne was not happy and they started going back and forth and back and forth. Now, it has been going on for months, but recently Wayne has continued an internet slam fest against Hendrik that has nothing to do with stealing their book, changing dates, creating SLT from S&C notes, false Mo Duk etc..

***

I think a proper term for what is going on would be; Gai Geung Gok "Chickens Peck The Rice". Rice = Gossip

***

[Hendrik]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain this and tell us just what is going here. Hendrik's response to these accusations on facebook were all in Chinese and no one has offered to explain his counterpoints.

Recently Mr. (Hendrik Santo) has been posting about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam) and Cho family arts, without the recognition of the Cho Family, openly on the Internet.

Since when it is against the rules to post about any martial art? Why does Hendrik need "Cho Family recognition" to talk about Yik Kam's WCK?

He has led the public to believe that he himself is "Yik Kam Wing Chun’s successor and Cho Ga Wing Chun’s only inheritor".

Ok. Where has he done that? As far as I know he hasn't done that here in the KFO forum. Someone needs to post a copy of what Hendrik has written where he says this.


He has presented wrong information concerning the Ban Chung Wing Chun system, irresponsibly fabricating the Cho family history whilst ignoring the presence of Cho family descendants. Such behavior is considered rude and not in line with Martial Art ethics.

Ok. But Hendrik has been doing a lot of research into ALL WCK history. He and others have essentially "rewritten" the history of every "family" of WCK. Why should the Cho family specifically take offense to this? What do the "Cho family descendants" have to do with historical research? Again, context for all of these statements being cut and pasted here is pretty important. Otherwise it all just looks like a big smear campaign aimed at one individual....Hendrik.

After verification by the Cho family, we feel the need to inform the public that Mr. Hendrik Santo is neither related to nor does he have any relationship with the Cho family successors.

So, you have to be a blood relative to study the Cho Ga system?????

All he has said about Zheng Dan Kam (Yik Kam), Cho Dak Sing, Cho family history or Cho family martial art theory are far from the truth. If anyone wishes to practice or listen to any of Mr. Hendrik Santo’s teachings, that’s all well and good but it has nothing to do with Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun .

This sounds like the only valid complaint in this whole thing. But it would be helpful if they said just what exactly they think Hendrik has wrong as far as what he has been saying about Yik Kam WCK theory and practice.

As over the years Ban Chung Zheng Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun has only been inherited privately and passed down in a traditional way, there is not much exposed to the public. All theory and teaching of our kung fu is for students only.

Ah! THIS is likely the main problem! Hendrik has "revealed the family secrets" to the public without permission!


Therefore we ask for understanding and respect from the public as to why we are such a mystery. However, if anyone is interested to know more about the history of Wing Chun of the Cho Family you can directly meet up with our Master – Grand Master Ku Choi Wah.

I've never understood this need for secrecy in modern times. In the old days when you might have to fight for your life, your family, or your livelihood it made sense to keep the family or village fighting methods secret so an enemy wouldn't be able to anticipate what you might do and be prepared for it. But no one is regularly using their martial arts training to stay alive. So this "family secret" mentality is no longer necessary. It just increases that chance that your family martial art is going to die out with coming generations as modern members lose interest in martial arts training.

GM Ku was the sole inheritor of Great Grand Master Cho Yin On (in his later years) and later Master Ku was authorized by Cho Dak Sing’s grandson, Cho Bak Lin(曹柏伦), as the overseas Master and Ban Chung Zhen Dan Kam Cho Ga Wing Chun representative. The Cho Family has therefore recognized Master Ku.

Has Hendrik ever claimed to be the "Grandmaster" of anything? Again, these are pretty strong accusations and would need something to back them up.

The following are two sources which describe my late sifu Cho Hung Choy in the Cho family Malaysia in the 1960-70



By Gm Cheong Wai Po, the most elder senior in cho family tree alive today. With brief translation .


发帖者 张渭波 时间： 下午11:43 没有评论:
2009年6月12日星期五

源：
Source

由红船子弟正旦金（易金）再传给武生曹顺（大眼顺），曹顺再传给儿子曹德胜与沈震师父及师叔曹德文（曹安） ，曹雄才（曹朱）。而其他的师叔伯就不为所知了。

Red boat actor Yik kam passed the art to Cho Shun. Cho shun passed the art to his son Cho Dak shing and Sam chan. Then Cho on ( Hendrik sigung) and Cho hung choy ( Hendrik sifu)

曹德胜传授于儿子曹钜全，曹钜全再传授于儿子

Cho Dak shing passed the art to his son Cho chuen, Cho chuen to his son.



而曹德文（曹安）师叔，落籍在马来西亚槟城在姑苏广存堂酒楼业公会内传授徒弟有陈扶，林绍祥，张庆及其他师 兄弟。

至于沈震师父落籍在马来西亚霹雳州（怡保），传授班中少林拳法于大弟子符清海（肥佬海）及本人张渭波居住在 大马槟城以及其他师兄弟们大多数在怡保区。

[Hendrik]

This is from new martial hero Hong Kong 1970.

After the World War Two, Cho hung choy is the first person who study wing chun kuen in Penang Malaysia. He obey his sifu Cho on teaching to train hard.

[Hendrik]

Cho hung choy is the first student of my sigung Cho on who was responsible for spreading cho family wing Chun to south east Asia.

My sigung Cho on has many students prio to my sifu Cho hung choy , however, my sifu is the first who study the yik kam wck of the cho family. Or inherit the yik kam siu Lin tau long set. Thus, he is the dai siheng of the cho Wck as one can verify from the above sources.



In 1947, Cho On brought Cho Hung-Choy back to Panyu to study with Cho Chuen, who had succeeded Cho Dak-Shing.


In the early 1950′s, Cho Hung-Choy returned to Penang, Malaysia where he met a student of Cho Shun’s named Sam Chan. From Sam Chan, Cho Hung-Choy picked up some more weapon sets, such as Dai Pa (Trident) and learned about Cho Shun class.


In the 1960 and early 1970s Cho hung choy was recognized of having many kong sau in Penang Malaysia where the marital artists in his generation know him.

Also, Cho hung choy was contacted as a senior of Cho family when Wong Shun Leung send his messenger to Penang due so some one in Cho family involve with a possible kong sau with Wong group. It was in the early 1970 if my memory serve.

[Hendrik]

This is the hand writing letter from my sifu ask me to teach while I come to study in the USA university at 1980

[Hendrik]

This is my sifu letter 1981 approve of me to teach to westerners on the art I learn from him.

[Hendrik]

This a letter from my siheng ask me to release my kuen kuit tight after sifu passed away.

[Hendrik]

I release all these information of my sifu , his position in
Cho family, and myself to the wing chun kuen community and the Wck researchers.

I am who I am as it is. Never I claim I am a grandmaster or only inheritor.

cho family has grown and evolve to many different lineages. Thus, every lineages has their view following their sifus instruction.

I follow my sifu, as written in the above letter by his own hand writing. I was asked to teach openly on my inheritance to the west honestly.

Different cho family lineages might have a different direction, and I respect every lineages.






All of these issues target on me recently comes from the fact that some one doesn't like me to share with Sifu Sergio who I share the common believe of

If we go far enough , we all are one Wck family.


As for all lineages from Cho family, my view to share with you all is, let's stop here. All Cho family can share together and grow even stronger. I never think I am perfect, or a grandmaster, and I never take it hard on the above announcement because I don't expect others to know who I am and it is my responsibilty to present the facts to clear up mis understanding.