Latest WCI and WCK history

[Shadow_warrior8]

Hi Andy!

Well, the problem is that no one can prove that the Leung Bik story isn't fake. No one can show Leung Bik descendants. No one can show a Leung Bik grave site. No one can show other students taught by Leung Bik. No one can show records of Leung Bik. Yet we know that Yuen Kay Shan, Chu Chong Man, and Tang Yik were all real. We know that Yip Man spent time with each of them. None of the people re-telling the Leung Bik story....neither Yip Man's sons or his students....were around when Yip Man was supposed to have trained with Leung Bik to actually see it. They are all just repeating a story. That's not insulting to anyone. Those are simply the facts of the matter.

I am just going to provide the link, the pictures say it all.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4906822&type=3

[KPM]

I am just going to provide the link, the pictures say it all.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4906822&type=3

Thanks for the link! Nice to see all the info on Leung Bik gathered in one place. I didn't realize there were so many mentions of Leung Bik in various places. It certainly gives me pause and will require me to rethink things!

It occurs to me that the central piece here is that New Martial Hero Magazine interview with Yip Man where he mentions Leung Bik. Several of his long-time students have said they had never even heard of Leung Bik until that magazine article appeared. Most of the mentions of Leung Bik noted on the facebook page could very well have come after that magazine article and used it as the source for their statements. And we've talked about those photos here already. It is unclear where they came from or whether they are truly pictures of Leung Bik. But still.....it is compelling to see so many sources outside of Yip Man lineage also mention Leung Bik! Certainly worth reconsidering the basic story!

I will admit that I have been a bit prejudiced towards the Leung Bik story. Likely others have felt the same way for the same reason. Let me explain, because some points of Wing Chun history seem to fade from memory as time goes on.

The Leung Bik story only really made an impression when William Cheung made it the centerpiece for promoting his "Traditional Wing Chun." William Cheung published his version of the story in Inside Kung Fu Magazine in the early 80's and caused a lot of controversy. His version of the story went like this:

Chan Wah Shun was interested in Leung Jan's Wing Chun, but LJ was not teaching publicly. So CWS secretly watched LJ teaching his two sons, Leung Bik and Leung Chun by peering through a knot-hole in the fence and started to copy what they were doing. But LJ noticed him and so began to teach an altered or modified version of Wing Chun so that CWS wouldn't see the "real thing." Later on he agreed to take CWS as a student, but continued to teach him this "modified" version so that CWS would be at a disadvantage compared to LJ's sons. But CWS never knew he had learned this "modified" version and because he was a big strong man he was able to make it work very well for him. This is what he taught to Yip Man. Then YM was in Hong Kong going to high school as a teenager and met an old man there. He challenged the old man to a fight and the old man beat him easily. He discovered that the old man was Leung Bik and became his student. Leung Bik passed on to Yip Man the "real" or "Traditional" version of Leung Jan's Wing Chun. But Yip Man did not teach this "true" version of Wing Chun to any of his students. He waited until William Cheung came along and only taught it to him. Then he made Cheung promise not to reveal it to anyone until after Yip Man's death. Then William Cheung leaves and goes to Australia and eventually starts teaching "Traditional Wing Chun" and forms his organization with this Leung Bik story as his justification for saying he is "Grandmaster" of the "real" or "Traditional" version of Wing Chun and all of his Si Hings and Si Dais in Hong Kong are practicing the "Modified" and therefore incomplete and inferior version of Wing Chun (sounds kind of like Hendrik's story, doesn't it!). As you might guess, this DID NOT go over well with the rest of the Yip Man clan! Yip Man was now dead and gone and unable to set anything straight. The ONLY breadcrumb trail was that interview in New Martial Hero Magazine. So hopefully you can see how people then became very skeptical of the entire Leung Bik story!

The problem with William Cheung's story is the idea that this "Traditional" version of Wing Chun was superior to the "modified" version that everyone else was doing, yet Yip Man never taught it to anyone else! He taught it only to a troubled teenager that then left for Australia and was sworn to secrecy. Yip Man did not teach it to the group of adult men who were his dedicated students and remained closely associated with him right up until the day of his death. Men like Ho Kam Ming and Wong Shun Leung. And William Cheung's Wing Chun doesn't look like anyone else's Wing Chun except Hung Fa Yi. Any link between the two is still very unclear and no one is talking! William Cheung's Wing Chun looks NOTHING like the Wing Chun that Leung Jan passed on in Ku Lo Village. So, other than William Cheung's loyal students, no one in the Wing Chun world took Cheung's version of the Leung Bik story seriously. And that has carried over.

And I'll note that William Cheung seems to have essentially stopped telling that story in recent years, probably hoping that people will forget about it.

[LFJ]

Don't tell anyone this secret until after I'm dead and no one can confirm it with me. Then reveal it to the world. You will have all the followers. Trust me.

Sounds like a great practical joke!

[Vajramusti]

Hendrik ..... The would be "Fake" Buddhist ...... know what I'm talking about Hendrik???

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What? Questioning Hendrik's beliefs? He is a Buddhist.
I am not referring to his wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

[Vajramusti]

I am just going to provide the link, the pictures say it all.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...4906822&type=3

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the link.

As for myself. 1. Ip Man's wing chun is self consistent and different from Chan Wah Son and others.2 Its not a hotch poch.
3. Envy, arrogance and search for status play a role in doubting Ip Man about his own roots.

joy chaudhuri

[LFJ]

Speaking of, I just saw an old "monk" on the subway yesterday. Oddly he was wearing green PLA shoes and sitting on a little stool he carried with his robe dragging on the floor behind him.

Saw another one a few months ago pestering people for money on the streets at like 1 or 2am, wearing shorts under his robes.

If I see him again I'll challenge him to recite the Heart Sutra. If he can maybe I'll give him 5 RMB or so.

[Vajramusti]

Speaking of, I just saw an old "monk" on the subway yesterday. Oddly he was wearing green PLA shoes and sitting on a little stool he carried with his robe dragging on the floor behind him.

Saw another one a few months ago pestering people for money on the streets at like 1 or 2am, wearing shorts under his robes.

If I see him again I'll challenge him to recite the Heart Sutra. If he can maybe I'll give him 5 RMB or so.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


One does not have to wear a robe or recite the Heart Sutra, or go to a temple to be a Buddhist.

joy chaudhuri

[LFJ]

One does not have to wear a robe or recite the Heart Sutra, or go to a temple to be a Buddhist.

No, but to impersonate a monk, inaccurately, is to be a fake Buddhist for sure.

[KPM]

My belief has always been that Fung Wah and Leung Bik were the same individual. Though this information on facebook isn't definitive proof, to me it is very plausible and the most likely scenario. More than likely his real name was Leung Bik but was known more widely by his nickname Fung Wah and not the other way around. .

Yes, very interesting! If Fung Wah was simply the popular nickname for Leung Bik, this would explain why there is no gravesite visits to Leung Bik. But does "Fung Tai Wah" have a nicknamish meaning like Muk Yan Wah means "wooden man Wah"?

[KPM]

Sifu Wayne Yung just posted in facebook:

. As a new stranger coming to baisee, they are ,of course, indoor disciple only. How come they can take a copy of the full document, which is still preserved today. As they are thinking in this way, it is totally not making any senses. ridigulous. Today, someone said they have seen and own our full document. Of course, I like to read it too, and compare with ours.

As HS always raises up his wck, and step down others, of course, including SCWC, without any internal. Please go to watch and compare our three set forms, and definitely you can find somthing and sure HS wrong.

.

Someone correct if I'm wrong, but Sifu Yung seems to be saying that Hendrik did the Baisee ceremony with him or someone else in the SCWC lineage. As a "discipleship" ceremony doesn't that imply commitment to learn the system in-depth and abide by your Sifu's rules and requests? Has Hendrik done that?

Sifu Yung also seems to be saying that he himself, as a Sifu in the SCWC lineage, has not actually seen the whole "book" that keeps getting written about. Yet Hendrik has?

Sifu Yung is also seems to be saying that he is taking offense at Hendrik's idea that SCWC is missing the proper "gong" because the don't train the way Hendrik has "discovered." Sounds like the same thing I said about the KLPS San Sik, doesn't it?

[VT Andy]

Sifu Wayne Yung just posted in facebook:

Law's family preserves the Snake Crane Wing Chun skill document for over 160 years, how come you guys coming and asking for baisee, then trying to take one. It is totally no ethics, and nonsense.

I have been in the Snake Crane Wing Chun Mun over 35 years, and a lot of my siHingDai, over 20 years too, not all of us owning, even seeing the full document We are a very traditional Mun family. We have a lot of restrictions governed by our Mun's rules, and that's why I am still in low key today, even we surfaced up few years ago.

There are in-door and in-room discipleships in SCWCM . As a new stranger coming to baisee, they are ,of course, indoor disciple only. How come they can take a copy of the full document, which is still preserved today. As they are thinking in this way, it is totally not making any senses. ridigulous. Today, someone said they have seen and own our full document. Of course, I like to read it too, and compare with ours.

As HS always raises up his wck, and step down others, of course, including SCWC, without any internal. Please go to watch and compare our three set forms, and definitely you can find somthing and sure HS wrong.

R, not all the things can be shared. If you own 1 billion US doallars, will you share all assets out to the public? For those which can be shared, we share it out already in the New Martial Hero magazine and the Redboat era wck ebook in the last 5 years. Among the papers, conversation with SCWCM in 2008 by the Chief editor of NMH, also listed in the Slideshare.Net, is the first paper relating to our kuits. Finally, be sure what you own, then telling to the public, otherwise it will mess up a lot TODAY the peaceful wck community.

Hi Daniel Fong thank you for sharing this from FB.

This is what my friends explain is why they do not trust people like this as well because they have seen this all through Hendrik and Robert Chu's past. but two doors to enter into baisee offers more protection against disloyal ones.

I think this statement explain importance of tradition for the disciples in the first door fresh or not still no full authority or entrust will full knowledge like captain commander level type as example but if it is Robert "R" is the one baisee then Sifu Yung already see he is not worthy of responsibility as he say the baisee student has NO ethics and NO sense! If he is talking about Robert Chu then his experience is also is same or very similar situation as other Sifu involved with Robert.

As my Sifu once said Robert Chu was up to no good now we see here he took advantage of Sifu Yung which is shameful and unfortunate for the SCWCM. Now i think it should be a major question to ask on motive of Robert Chu Sergio and Hendrik to always be against Yip Man clan year after year misrepresenting misinterpreting and misusing others information and indirectly accusing others to be false mistaken incomplete etc.

My friend from the Moy Yat clan explain it to me as "its like some stranger yelling outside your house saying your great grandfather never existed. That is ridiculous. That is what Robert Chu is doing."

Sifu Yung who is traditional master can see through Hendrik very easy. Hendrik is not so smart as Hendrik thinks. This is very damaging for his credibility.

Sifu Yung final word of advice in this statement is very common sense for honest people: "Finally, be sure what you own, then telling to the public, otherwise it will mess up a lot TODAY the peaceful wck community."

[VT Andy]

Someone correct if I'm wrong, but Sifu Yung seems to be saying that Hendrik did the Baisee ceremony with him or someone else in the SCWC lineage. As a "discipleship" ceremony doesn't that imply commitment to learn the system in-depth and abide by your Sifu's rules and requests? Has Hendrik done that?

Sifu Yung also seems to be saying that he himself, as a Sifu in the SCWC lineage, has not actually seen the whole "book" that keeps getting written about. Yet Hendrik has?

Sifu Yung is also seems to be saying that he is taking offense at Hendrik's idea that SCWC is missing the proper "gong" because the don't train the way Hendrik has "discovered." Sounds like the same thing I said about the KLPS San Sik, doesn't it?

Hi Keith,

I think Sifu Yung is referring to the baisee as "R" to mean Robert Chu not Hendrik but Hendrik is involved with them somehow.

[VT Andy]

Well, the problem is that no one can prove that the Leung Bik story isn't fake. No one can show Leung Bik descendants. No one can show a Leung Bik grave site. No one can show other students taught by Leung Bik. No one can show records of Leung Bik. Yet we know that Yuen Kay Shan, Chu Chong Man, and Tang Yik were all real. We know that Yip Man spent time with each of them. None of the people re-telling the Leung Bik story....neither Yip Man's sons or his students....were around when Yip Man was supposed to have trained with Leung Bik to actually see it. They are all just repeating a story. That's not insulting to anyone. Those are simply the facts of the matter.

Hi Keith,

The problem is also like a double the sword too isn't it? Cannot prove left or right actually but what exists is the knowledge left behind from somewhere to learn and pass on. I am 3 generations removed from my great grandparents and have no proof art all of their existence at all. Everything lost and destroyed in the wars of my country. All i have are stories from my grandparents and parents. I cannot prove they existed or who they were but i also cannot prove they didn't exist except for their children being my grandparents. All I can do is believe them.

For Leung Bik to exist or not exist the knowledge that Yip Man passed to William Cheung exists, like me only having stories of my great grandparents, which i am sure students and masters of different groups have had decades to vet the merit of William Cheung teachings. Can't prove Leung Bik existed but also cannot prove he didn't exist. Sometimes there are people who choose to stay hidden and leave no trace other than their influence on others. I think Leung Bik was likely this kind of person but i think i read someone here also post that Leung Bik may have relative still alive but unconfirmed?

[VT Andy]

I searched and found this link reference a Leung Man Lok as Leung Bik's grandson and this thread showed in search results

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...2887-Leung-Bik

[KPM]

Hi Keith,

I think Sifu Yung is referring to the baisee as "R" to mean Robert Chu not Hendrik but Hendrik is involved with them somehow.

Well, someone needs to verify that because nowhere in that facebook post was Robert's name mentioned, however Hendrik was mentioned.