Latest WCI and WCK history

[gumgongsao]

Hello KPM,

I can actually appreciate what you have layed out in disgussions regarding this topic of HFY and TWC similarities and your point of view and questioning from a third party perspective isn't completely invalid, I have to agree. However I will try to shed some more light as to my position and perspective from my experience in HFY and clarify my standpoint to you. First, let's get this straight. I am on this forum for the pure sense of contributing, and also exploring many different interesting topics related to Wing Chun. I am not really interested in discussing politics such as the Leung Bik story true or not true, and I don't care whether people believe or don't believe the validity of it. That's their own positions. So let's talk about the technical standpoint between all Wing Chun systems. I'd like for you to have a better understanding of the similarities as well as the "differences" that I see.

Let's just say that we generally have 3 major groups of audiences from this forum which I have broken down to as follows: the first group consisting of HFY members, the second group consisting of TWC members, and the third group let's call it Popular Wing Chun which consists of everyone else from all other Wing Chun branches, enthusiasts and any martial artists interested in Wing Chun. Is this a fair assumption? I can not speak entirely for other Wing Chun systems so I'll just generalize on a few signatures.

In the HFY system we primarily have 3 Bong Sao's within the 3 timezones in Time and Space. From my perspective the TWC Bong Sao uses a straight wrist, and if you compare it to the HFY Ying Bong Sao it looks similar in terms of looks in nature of shape. So if you say we look similar yes we do look similar in this way, but I also can see a big big difference when I apply the 3 timezones of time and space interaction. From the other Wing Chun systems they consist of a Bong Sao with a bent wrist and if you compare it to the HFY Crane (Hok) Bong Sao it also looks similar in terms of looks in nature of shape, but again I see a big big difference after learning HFY Wing Chun's Time Space and Energey in the 3 timezones interaction. So in a way, we also look like the other Wing Chun Systems in the HFY Crane (Hok) Bong Sao in terms of so called similarities, but at the same time there are major varying differences that I see. However, in the HFY system we also have a Lan Bong Sao (which is different than Lan Sao).

When a different lineage Wing Chun System doesn't matter if it's TWC or all other WCK system, some do the bong sao "this way", or do it "that way", but in HFY we do not look at the technical standpoint of how to do the bong sao, but instead we must identify which time zone in time and space before we apply the 3 different Bong Sao's. The nature of the application and execution in the HFY 3 timezones is very different. In the past posts, you only mention the similarities when you see TWC and HFY, but based on my personal experience interacting with TWC people, YM Wing Chun and all other lineages I basically can identify not only the similarities, but I can also see the big big "differences" after studying the HFY System in 3 timezone approach.

From over 23 years doing Wing Chun I have met many genuine friends from all Wing Chun lineages, and even such as TWC folks, after we get together for knowledge exchange and for them to experience HFY Wing Chun, we can see very clearly that all Wing Chun have alot of similarities but at the same time they can identify the differences as well and that all Wing Chun basically have 1 source going back before the 1850's. After the 1850's primarily differences drawn from the Opera Society and the Hung Gun Boxer Society. After that we see branching out so many different versions of the Wing Chun. But in the beginning one thing you can not argue, that there's only One family of Wing Chun System before the 1850 Split. All Wing Chun supposed to look the same in one way or another so there's no surprises there. But in order for anyone to be able to see the difference, the direct learning experience must be required.

Sifu Billy Lau

[VT Andy]

Robert claimed himself reading SCWC secret document. Did his baisee just for the document ? If it is, really sick on him. Today, both these guys betrayed SCWC, and going to Sifu Sergio. There should be a big deal there!!!

Hello again, and Chunner.

I just catching up on reading. I think the betrayal is not so much regards to how there is intentional misinterpretation and abuse source material for their own supposed views of history which is the implied agenda, but the betrayal is once someone Baisee then loyalty and character must come first in order to earn deeper knowledge in the art. Someone mentioned that there is in door and in room category of Baisee with many regulations to follow. So Robert and Hendrik Baisee to Sifu Yung then must have lied to him about swearing loyalty which shows very bad character and as Sifu Yung said NO ethics and nonsense. Then by this betrayal is to mean no loyalty and no ethics.

Then next I think Robert and Hendrik run to Sergio with whatever info they got without giving credit back to Sifu Yung. I can definitely see from Sifu Yung standpoint he feels very used and taken advantage by them at least on this point if not more things. If they swore their loyalty to him with baisee then turn around and done those things then I can see why he says betrayed. They did not respect the Baisee regulations of SCWCM is only conclusion.

Hendril and Robert never really respect any Sifu ever do they? Since the days of lee Moy Shan and Moy yat rejecting Robert so he left with incomplete training. He trained a bit in HK and back to the states, eventually hooked up with Hawkins Cheung in LA in late 80’s but friends tell me he didn’t learn the whole system so more incomplete training. Did he ever complete the system under a single sifu from beginning to end? I don’t think so. He is more like a collector so he sticks around only enough to get what he thinks is work and bargains with people who know what he doesn’t and trades to get what he wants. All while also attacking other Sifus and spreading rumors around causing politics and mess. How can anyone take this guy as serious when he demonstrates over and over no commitment? is he a history researcher and WC expert, or information collector with incomplete training? If I want advice and expertise on fixing my car or marriage or Ving Tsun I won’t go to someone with a similar history and education as him.

This guy collects info because his WC has always ever been incomplete so he has to make up his own stuff, take from others. Just looking at this history I don’t think it is far stretch to see he really has no loyalty only to himself. What does that mean? Look at this most recent event with him baisee to Sifu Yung SCWCM. His word will ALWAYS be suspect.

Andy

[Hendrik]

Hey Hendrik, I just check in on KFO. And it seems that Wayne Yung is telling people that you never finished the cho ga SLT. Form, maybe it's a good idea if you post your complete SLT. Form to show people that Wayne is not telling the truth.



"Sifu Yung has confirmed that HS,'s Siu Nim Tau had not been completed, that HS was trying to take SCWC and recompose his SNT based on his Kuit."




I have been ignore others creativity and fantasy stories about me which was made up for any agenda they like. Since I don't track KFO daily, Today I received the above message.

And I would like to clearlify it here once for all.






A,

I would like the Wck researchers to set the record straight .


There are at least three video footages , which is more then a decade old, of yik kam Siu Lin Tau full complete sets which is accord to the yik kam slt writing existed in the west .


1. One video is perform by my siheng at 1984 showing all four parts in details.

1984 video is taken right after my sifu late Gm Cho hong choy passing, in order to secure all core sets which my late sifu teaches . The attached letter is the communication at that time from my siheng where we secure the 6.5 pole etc.


2. One video is perform by myself at 1998 at sifu Robert Chu school in LA. Showing all four sections in details. With sifu Robert Chu in the same video introduce and showing the comparison with his CK set.


3. One video is perform by me in Singapore at 2000 , to give the set to cho family member in order to restore the sets.





Sifu Robert chu has kept the 1985 and 1998 sets videos with the kuen kuit and other documents from my sifu Since 1998.

Both , sifu Robert Chu and Rene Richie has the mailing documentation archive of how and who I passed the 2000 set in Singapore.

Sifu Sergio, and sifu Jim Rosalendo have the 1998 full yk slt four section set video footage and the full kuen kuit translation in english.


For past few decades, we have kept the Yik kam SLT and core documents in different parts of the world with different wcners in order to preserve a part of Wck root, In case anything happen to me.





B.

So what is the different between my today's Yik a Kam SLT compare with my siheng SLT 1984 or 30 year old version ,and my own 15 year old version in 1998?

The cheography is the same, nothing changes.

And my today SLT practice is just , I have a fine tune handling based on my further understanding of the yik kam SLT kuen kuit and details of the Emei and white crane mother arts.



Also,
As for today, more and more wcners from different part of the world has join the research of the mother art of the YK SLT . In facts , multiple verification have been done on the emei and white crane connections. It is the a matter of time information will be release to the public .




C.

My agenda in Wck research is simply

it is not about anyone trying to bring his ego out or his lineage on top of others,

but just to show what really was in there in the beginning and then anyone can be free to judge what works or not for his wc,
but base on the information and system that were there to create wc.


There are lots of wcners who care about Wck. Those are who I am working with.

And

I part away from those who has different believe of their own agenda. I would not comment on those who I part away. Because I believe in everyone is free to choose their direction. And also, not to response to those who intentionally trying to discredit me to destroy the ancient root of Wck for whatever thier reasons is.



Here I rest my case and sign off.

[Wayfaring]

Here is a great example of what I was talking about above! "Stirring up old myths"???!!!!! "Facts and truth"?????? I've laid out a very simple and logical conclusion. BPWT, thank you for backing me up! But until others start speaking out for what seems pretty obvious the HFY crowd will continue to believe that everyone else is just out there somewhere!

Yes. Stirring up old myths. Try using the search function even on this forum on this topic. To you it seems like a novel concept you just noticed. To me it is a regurgitated myth discussion from about 5 years ago.

Billy Lau great explanation.

[gumgongsao]

Billy Lau great explanation.

Thank you Wayfaring. I actually don't know you in person or have met you before but I appreciate your sincere feedback. I only have one purpose here and that is for "genuine discussions".

Sifu Billy Lau

[zuti car]

Hey zuti. What's up? Sorry, but kind of sounds like you are commenting on HFY with no experience in it while saying you're not commenting on it.

I guess you don't believe sifu Gee's history. I'm not sure how much of it you have heard. But that's fine. Everybody is entitled to their own opinion.

I am not commenting HFY , not from a technical pointy of view . I was clear that I do not have any experience with HFY therefore I cannot comment their technique . What I know is what I have read . I am simply talking about marketing approach and pointed out that their story is basically the same as TWC story , only with more details . Like the stories about Fang Qi Niang and Yim Wing Chun . In essence , same story with same message , the only difference is , later story is written with more details and some characters were added as a back up . In general , when we talk about Kung Fu history we have to be aware of the fact that kung fu history from Chinese point of view is about everything else but facts . It is mostly about the "face" and prestige of the particular style ,as a source of inspiration for young practitioners , some times , source of moral and ethical norms , and now days it is about money . One other thing also raise a question and that is "research" . Often I can hear that someone did some research , what I am interested about is methodology of research, what are their sources of evidence , how do they verify and sort collected data, methods of analyzing and interpreting the data , and some other questions regarding their motives and goals , cultural background , ect . Main question about Wing Chun history in general -is there any research about the matter conducted by professional historians and archaeologist ? I think not . What I can see is that some people are reading some "old manuscripts" and they visit some old folks and listening their stories , hardly a scientific approach . I will not analyze all flaws of this approach ( if can call it that ) , but what we actually know about Wing Chun history are old folks stories . Now , I would never believe in old people claims , especially if they have some legacy to preserve and/or to secure source of income for their children .On top of everything , there is a cultural gap and that make things much more complicated . Although I appreciate all the efforts of all the people who traveled to China and talked with elders , until we have some serious research conducted by professionals , what we have and what we know are fairy tales , especially when we talk about pre-republican era .

[KPM]

Hey Hendrik, I just check in on KFO. And it seems that Wayne Yung is telling people that you never finished the cho ga SLT. Form, maybe it's a good idea if you post your complete SLT. Form to show people that Wayne is not telling the truth.



"Sifu Yung has confirmed that HS,'s Siu Nim Tau had not been completed, that HS was trying to take SCWC and recompose his SNT based on his Kuit."




.

I will say that I remember seeing at least one of the videos that Hendrik mentions of him performing the entire YK SLT set many years back. So no, I don't believe this accusation that he never finished the YK SLT. When I saw that quote from Sifu Yung, I thought he was referring to the "gong" training that Hendrik has been talking about lately. Since Hendrik claims to have needed the SCWC writings to combine with his YK lineage kuits to reconstruct what he thinks was the original training method, the implication is that the YK SLT that he learned was as incomplete as he accuses everyone else's SLT as being. Therefore, Sifu Yung may not be referring to learning the sequence of the form, but rather the "complete" method of training the internal aspects.

I will also say that I think it is rather silly of Sifu Yung to be posting such things on his own facebook page and then asking someone else to repeat it here. It's easy to get a KFO account! Let him come here and speak for himself and then answer any questions people might have in order to clarify what he has to say. All this second hand stuff and incomplete statements is pretty ridiculous!

[KPM]

Billy thank you for your considerate response. I do appreciate your viewpoint and think it deserves at least one more reply.

your point of view and questioning from a third party perspective isn't completely invalid, I have to agree.

Thank you! I hope you also recognize that I have not been trying to "stir up an old myth." What I have been stating is not a myth. It is simply the facts as I see them. Those facts just haven't changed in several years! There are similarities between HFY and TWC that we don't see between other WCK styles. There are problems with TWC's "origin story." There is a good possibility that there is a relationship between TWC and HFY that is more recent than their common origin over 150 years ago. None of that is a "myth" as some people seem to think. I hope most people reading this have seen the logic behind my argument and agree with me.

I am on this forum for the pure sense of contributing, and also exploring many different interesting topics related to Wing Chun.

I am glad you are here and hope that you will participate in many more discussions to come!


Let's just say that we generally have 3 major groups of audiences from this forum which I have broken down to as follows: the first group consisting of HFY members, the second group consisting of TWC members, and the third group let's call it Popular Wing Chun which consists of everyone else from all other Wing Chun branches, enthusiasts and any martial artists interested in Wing Chun. Is this a fair assumption?

Yes, I think so.


In the HFY system we primarily have 3 Bong Sao's within the 3 timezones in Time and Space.

You do realize how weird that sounds to the non-HFY crowd?

From my perspective the TWC Bong Sao uses a straight wrist, and if you compare it to the HFY Ying Bong Sao it looks similar in terms of looks in nature of shape. So if you say we look similar yes we do look similar in this way, but I also can see a big big difference when I apply the 3 timezones of time and space interaction.

I appreciate what you are saying. I have no doubt at all that there are significant differences. But consider what you wrote from an outsider's perspective. If it takes an in-depth knowledge of HFY's concepts of time and space interaction to recognize these differences with TWC, doesn't that imply that the similarities are pretty strong? After all, I can recognize the big big differences between HFY and Yuen Kay Shan WCK or Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK right away without needing an in-depth knowledge of HFY's concepts of time and space interaction. You keep emphasizing the differences. That is NOT the issue! It's the similarities that go beyond those that are found with other systems of WCK that are the issue.


In the past posts, you only mention the similarities when you see TWC and HFY, but based on my personal experience interacting with TWC people, YM Wing Chun and all other lineages I basically can identify not only the similarities, but I can also see the big big "differences" after studying the HFY System in 3 timezone approach.

Yes. I agree. I am talking about the similarities, not the differences. It is the similarities that imply relationship, not differences. Like I have gone to great lengths to try and explain, if 2 things are more similar to each other than they are to 4 other things, the implication is that the 2 things are more closely related. I have acknowledged multiple times that I agree there are differences. But like in my oil painting analogy, an art historian or art critic looks for the similarities between very different works of art to determine how closely related they are.

From over 23 years doing Wing Chun I have met many genuine friends from all Wing Chun lineages, and even such as TWC folks, after we get together for knowledge exchange and for them to experience HFY Wing Chun, we can see very clearly that all Wing Chun have alot of similarities but at the same time they can identify the differences as well and that all Wing Chun basically have 1 source going back before the 1850's.

I don't question that. But after over 30 years of doing Wing Chun and studying 3 different families of Wing Chun (Yip Man WCK, TWC, and Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK), and years of studying physical medicine and biomechanics, I can pretty readily see similarities as well as differences in body structure, power generation, and mechanics between different WCK styles. Based on my knowledge and experience of multiple WCK systems and human biomechanics I can reach logical conclusions of which systems are more closely related to some and not so closely related to others. So why is it that you can post multiple times about your experience and the differences you see and that's OK. But when I post about my experience and the similarities that I see I am "repeating old myths", or "up to something", or "disingenuous" or "immature" or....any number of things that have been stated in this very thread? Please explain that to me!!!! Why have your HFY brothers essentially launched an attack on me when all I have done is state what I see from my experience and knowledge just as you have? Why is my viewpoint any less valid than yours????

[theo]

Keith, my understanding is they worked together to compare the kuits and found that they expressed similar content, even though both lineages are not related and separated for many years as SC surfaced recently after laying low for many years. the YK kuits are very clear on what the training method is. If you compare them, they are saying similar things, but different level of detail.

I will say that I remember seeing at least one of the videos that Hendrik mentions of him performing the entire YK SLT set many years back. So no, I don't believe this accusation that he never finished the YK SLT. When I saw that quote from Sifu Yung, I thought he was referring to the "gong" training that Hendrik has been talking about lately. Since Hendrik claims to have needed the SCWC writings to combine with his YK lineage kuits to reconstruct what he thinks was the original training method, the implication is that the YK SLT that he learned was as incomplete as he accuses everyone else's SLT as being. Therefore, Sifu Yung may not be referring to learning the sequence of the form, but rather the "complete" method of training the internal aspects.

I will also say that I think it is rather silly of Sifu Yung to be posting such things on his own facebook page and then asking someone else to repeat it here. It's easy to get a KFO account! Let him come here and speak for himself and then answer any questions people might have in order to clarify what he has to say. All this second hand stuff and incomplete statements is pretty ridiculous!

[KPM]

Keith, my understanding is they worked together to compare the kuits and found that they expressed similar content, even though both lineages are not related and separated for many years as SC surfaced recently after laying low for many years. the YK kuits are very clear on what the training method is. If you compare them, they are saying similar things, but different level of detail.

Well, if that is true then we have to conclude that Sifu Yung is just making up crap about Hendrik not finishing the YK SLT. And if he has done that, is he any more "honorable", etc than Hendrik? At least Hendrik comes here to speak for himself.

[gumgongsao]

Hello Keith,

You stated that you study human bio mechanics. Not only am I Sifu, but I also have a degree in engineering so do you understand me better now? I stated very clearly I am here for genuine discussion with genuine martial artists. What I see from you is repeating your opinion about something you believe over and over with a lack of real substance, only surface level logic without any valid technical logistics. You always have to include snide and implied comments and don't sound genuine, such things are not necessary.

You are basically whining because you have an issue with some people here, and you are very emotional towards them. I am not here for that nonsense, nor am I here to babysit between conflicts you may have with a certain individual on the forums.
Let me tell you something straight. I am NOT here for your emotional drama, political games, or tell you your opinion is wrong, whatever you choose to believe is your own. Talk straight, square up, man up, from now on with me. Or would you rather continue spinning circles and whining about what you believe?

It is really tiresome just like my 4 yr old sometimes. I love her, and because I love her I have to tell what she loves. She keeps telling me everyday "believe me, daddy I'm beautiful as miss America." What else I can say to my little one, besides, "yes yes...you're beautiful!"

Keith, would it make you feel better and more secure for me to tell you that you are also beautiful as Miss America? Can the real marital artists go back to the training hall for more training now? Hey man, I don't know about you...but I have many students waiting for me!

Sifu Billy Lau

[KPM]

Billy, I do not understand the tone and sentiment in your most recent post. Where was I anything but polite with you?

You stated that you study human bio mechanics. Not only am I Sifu, but I also have a degree in engineering so do you understand me better now?

No. I'm sorry. I don't. What difference does that make? You disregarded my experience and training in biomechanics, and as a physician specializing in physical medicine and sports medicine. My qualifications didn't seem to make any difference to you, so why should your qualifications make any difference to me? I will ask again, why is my viewpoint any less valid than yours?

I stated very clearly I am here for genuine discussion with genuine martial artists.

And where have I been anything but "genuine" in what I have been saying? Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean it is not "genuine."

What I see from you is repeating your opinion about something you believe over and over with a lack of real substance, only surface level logic without any valid technical logistics. You always have to include snide and implied comments and don't sound genuine, such things are not necessary.

You have also been repeating your opinion over and over as well. So what's the difference? I have laid out valid logic to say that there is likely some relationship between TWC and HFY that is more recent than their common origin 150 years ago. No one has tried to counter that logic and point out that it is flawed. You talked about differences between the systems and I pointed out that it is the similarities between the systems that shows relationship. My point and my perspective are just as valid as yours, and just as "genuine." You want to talk about snide comments, just go back and read Savi's post!


You are basically whining because you have an issue with some people here, and you are very emotional towards them.

What? Are you serious? I have come under attack and been accused of all kinds of things by your HFY brothers just for expressing my viewpoint and you are now telling me I'm "basically whining" and being "very emotional"??? I had formed the impression that of all the HFY guys posting here you were the one that was the most level-headed and had the most common sense! Please go back and read through this thread and tell me who has been the most "emotional" and who has had the most "issues with people." It hasn't been me!


Let me tell you something straight. I am NOT here for your emotional drama, political games, or tell you your opinion is wrong, whatever you choose to believe is your own. Talk straight, square up, man up, from now on with me. Or would you rather continue spinning circles and whining about what you believe?

Point out ONE place where I was not "square up" with you or wasn't "talking straight." I have done my level best to present my perspective as "unemotional" and "unpolitical" as I can. What "circles" have I spun? I have been very consistent and very logical with what I have been saying.


Keith, would it make you feel better and more secure for me to tell you that you are also beautiful as Miss America? Can the real marital artists go back to the training hall for more training now? Hey man, I don't know about you...but I have many students waiting for me!

Who is making snide comments now??!!! Who is making implications now??? ("real" martial artists). Look Billy, you don't have to agree with me. But you and the HFY crowd cannot just dismiss what I have to say either! What I have said is not a "myth" or any of the other derogatory things that have been noted. It is a logical conclusion based upon what I see. I am not the only one that has reached this conclusion, and it is a conclusion that is going to be around for a long time until any relationship between HFY and TWC is better understood. And you haven't said anything that contradicts my logic and makes me feel obligated to change my conclusion.

[Wayfaring]

I don't question that. But after over 30 years of doing Wing Chun and studying 3 different families of Wing Chun (Yip Man WCK, TWC, and Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK), and years of studying physical medicine and biomechanics, I can pretty readily see similarities as well as differences in body structure, power generation, and mechanics between different WCK styles. Based on my knowledge and experience of multiple WCK systems and human biomechanics I can reach logical conclusions of which systems are more closely related to some and not so closely related to others. So why is it that you can post multiple times about your experience and the differences you see and that's OK. But when I post about my experience and the similarities that I see I am "repeating old myths", or "up to something", or "disingenuous" or "immature" or....any number of things that have been stated in this very thread? Please explain that to me!!!! Why have your HFY brothers essentially launched an attack on me when all I have done is state what I see from my experience and knowledge just as you have? Why is my viewpoint any less valid than yours????

Keith,

From my perspective you noticed something we all did years ago. TWC and HFY people have met and compared notes, including sifu Dale Vitts visiting the HFY lineage holder sifu Garrett Gee. Their conclusion was different than yours in the similarities of the arts. We accept their conclusion.

I explained this to you.

Now you are "under attack" somehow.

Yes you are acting like a drama queen.

[BPWT..]

Keith, from my perspective you noticed something we all did years ago. TWC and HFY people have met and compared notes, including sifu Dale Vitts visiting the HFY lineage holder sifu Garrett Gee. Their conclusion was different than yours in the similarities of the arts.

Did Sifu Dale Vitts ever write anything regarding this? It would be nice to read, in detail, the differences, similarities and the varying theories of the two systems.

[Wayfaring]

Did Sifu Dale Vitts ever write anything regarding this? It would be nice to read, in detail, the differences, similarities and the varying theories of the two systems.

I read stuff on the hfy108 forum which is closed now. There's plenty a search function brings up on this site too. Type in "Dale Vits" (one T I spelled it wrong) and you can see plenty of gems, including this thread:

http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/...rigin-theories

Here I can see around 11 years ago, Keith had the same kind of questions. And we also see that he has read the HFY book. Anyway interesting thread.