Latest WCI and WCK history

[BPWT..]

YKS's older brother moved to VietNam and played a big role there . No signs of IM type of rolling platform
in YKS's brother's wing chun.

Do we know when YKS's brother moved to Vietnam? Was it after or before the time when YM and YKS were meeting?

Could it be that the rolling platform we're familiar with (in YM lineage Wing Chun) was developed by Yip Man and Yuen Kay San together?

[hunt1]

Good points Joy and I tend to agree with you. I just am giving the YKS teaching YM chi sau rolling the benefit of the doubt as I don't think it is the major claim. To me it's the advanced techniques and you made good point's which go to the next part of my response to Keith.

Traditionally in wing chun advanced techniques were kept until and shown in the dummy form. You find this across all the different lines of wing chun. Also the key to wing chun is body usage and structure. If YM learned his advanced wing chun from YKS then we should see Fatshan and YKS body structure. However what is seen in YM students like HKM,WSL, TST,DL Yip Brothers, MY etc is a different body structure not the Fatshan/YKS structure. We only see some structure like this in his early students.. Again this coincides with Jui Wan's account and indicates that YM rejected the Fatshan/YKS structure for a structure and usage that Jui Wan said provided a better result. So YM body structure and usage does not support the story that YM learned his advanced wing chun from YKS.

The dummy is the last place we need to look . If you compare the dummy forms of Pan Nam, Chan Wah Sun's descendents, Lan Gai and Kwok Fu,Jui Wan, Fok Chui, Lo Kwai descendents and Yip Man HK dummy you will see a strong commonality in both sections ,structure, organization and purpose. The individual sections are not all identical but many are the same or very close across all the different lines. Of key importance is the Fok Chui dummy. Fok learned first from a Ng Chung So student then from Yui Choi. He does the Yui Choi bamboo dummy but his wooden dummy form that comes from NCS is very very similar to the YM form.

What this tells us is that all those that trace back to Leung Jan share a commonality of dummy forms and technique. Then if we move on we see the Yui Choi dummy. Yui Cho learned from YCW and NCS. Their dummy is a cross between the two teachers. It has a NCS structure but more YCW technique ,then we come to YCW dummy which is different yet again but not like the Leung Jan descended forms at all then different yet again is the YKS dummy. If YM learned his advanced wing chun from YKS we should clearly see it in the dummy . We do not see this at all other than very basic things. Bong sao tan punch etc. Just the common wing chun basic moves. In fact as Joy point out . Lan Gai and Kwok Fu said the YM told them not to show YKS their dummy . YKS wanting to learn YM dummy makes some sense since YKS was a wing chun scholar and I would think learning Leung Jan dummy techniques would be of great interest to one not from LJ line.

So for these objective observations and reasons I do not believe YM learned advanced wing chun from YKS. If he did we would see it in the body structure and dummy of YM and we don't.

I could get into different stories I have heard or was told but as I mentioned in my first post I don't believe human memory is that accurate.

[deejaye72]

thats what i'm thinking also! whats the difference, i'm curious

[KPM]

Thanks for summary Hunt1! So how does Fung Wah fit into all of this?

[KPM]

I doubt it. I know that they worked out some together and at one point IM accepted YKS hospitality.
YKS's older brother moved to VietNam and played a big role there . No signs of IM type of rolling platform in YKS's brother's wing chun.

Someone posted here awhile back that was familiar with YCW's WCK and said that they DID make use of the same rolling platform.

You can see Sum Nun's son's wc- quite different in stance and turns from Ip Man.

You can see Chan Wah Shun's son's WCK and it is VERY different from Ip Man's!!


IM's synthesis in wing chun IMO is really one of a kind.

I think we all agree with that! Ip Man likely had many influences on his Wing Chun, including from the Weng Chun guys training at the Dai Duk Lan like Chu Chong Man and Tang Yik. Its how he put it all together in a cohesive curriculum that sets him apart. That's why I think its possible that his Leung Bik story was just a convenient way to explain changes in his method that came from several different teachers.


Sloppy wing chun history is mostly the case despite Hendrik's soliloquies and Sergio's roving camera.
Leaving history aside truth remains elusive about who learned what and for how long from Ip Man.

Very true!

I also find it humorous that folks who try to get to the bottom of IM's wc motions do not accept his
simple statements that he learned a lot from Leung Bik

The problem is that as far as I know, no one has ever found any historical evidence that Leung Bik existed. I think the one historical note was that he never learned Wing Chun, or may have been a cripple. But I don't have a reference for that. Maybe Navin remembers?

[KPM]

What this tells us is that all those that trace back to Leung Jan share a commonality of dummy forms and technique.

So for these objective observations and reasons I do not believe YM learned advanced wing chun from YKS. If he did we would see it in the body structure and dummy of YM and we don't.

.

Good analysis. But consider this as well. The body structure that Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo village when he retired, at least as we see in today's Pin Sun WCK, is more similar to YKS Wing Chun than it is to Yip Man Wing Chun. So that needs to be factored in to your conclusions.

[Minghequan]

This may be what Hendrik is referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCCkc5UNZqk

[LFJ]

This may be what Hendrik is referring to?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCCkc5UNZqk

Ha... He says we have "clear writings"... which he can't read, and he has help from "researchers" like Hendrik. And he does stupid sh!t like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6s1rbPFVg0

How can anyone take him seriously?

[LFJ]

So for these objective observations and reasons I do not believe YM learned advanced wing chun from YKS. If he did we would see it in the body structure and dummy of YM and we don't.

I could get into different stories I have heard or was told but as I mentioned in my first post I don't believe human memory is that accurate.

I believe you're on the right track. Writings and testimonials are often agenda-filled bullsh!t and memories are often imprecise. Changes in movement patterns throughout a person's teaching career though is something objective that can be observed.

[Hendrik]

Ha... He says we have "clear writings"... which he can't read, and he has help from "researchers" like Hendrik. And he does stupid sh!t like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6s1rbPFVg0

How can anyone take him seriously?

An open facts for the public,
I have shared and passed to sifu Sergio, and a dozen of sifu level WCners from various lineages around the world, On the writing and the exact instruction of the core of 1850 SLT.

They now know exactly the six core elements including basic Qi medirians handling in SNT such as open lung medirian handling which is one of the core key of SNT practice, the seven bows for WCK Jin development within SNT , and be able to perform the set in details at least to the entery level.


Thus, Sergio and these group of wcners Sifus have the writing, the set, the system, and the details of SNT 1850.

[Minghequan]

Okay dude, if it's not "violating your laws" why don't you pass some of that stuff on to me for my own research?

Just lay it out in clear, concise terms that all can benefit from ...... waiting .................

[wtxs]

Okay dude, if it's not "violating your laws" why don't you pass some of that stuff on to me for my own research?

Just lay it out in clear, concise terms that all can benefit from ...... waiting .................

Ron , Ron, Ron. If you have not figured it out by now, you gonna have to wait a looong looong time.

[KPM]

Good analysis. But consider this as well. The body structure that Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo village when he retired, at least as we see in today's Pin Sun WCK, is more similar to YKS Wing Chun than it is to Yip Man Wing Chun. So that needs to be factored in to your conclusions.

Interestingly enough, in this interview that Sifu Sergio did with GM Fung Chun, he notes that Leung Jan had 5 sons, and that one of them moved to Vietnam where he taught Wing Chun. He says that Wong Wah Sam's first student left to Vietnam and stayed to train with him there. Wouldn't it be great to find surviving members of that lineage! I'm surprised Sifu Sergio hasn't tried to track them down!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEO...ZuvBo&index=58

So who knows? Will the real Leung Bik please stand up!!!!

[Hendrik]

Interestingly enough, in this interview that Sifu Sergio did with GM Fung Chun, he notes that Leung Jan had 5 sons, and that one of them moved to Vietnam where he taught Wing Chun. He says that Wong Wah Sam's first student left to Vietnam and stayed to train with him there. Wouldn't it be great to find surviving members of that lineage! I'm surprised Sifu Sergio hasn't tried to track them down!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEO...ZuvBo&index=58

So who knows? Will the real Leung Bik please stand up!!!!

These things are not that complex IMHO.


There are three major known lineages passed down from 1850 era:

The law man Kung lineage which give birth to snake crane of the law family and yks .
The Wong wah bo lineage which give birth to Leung jan
The yik kam lineage which give birth to Cho family


Everyone of these three lineages has its signature and focus.

Ie: Yik kam has comprehensive internal information , law has the comprehensive woodern dummy set ...etc. No one has it all.


Assume Leung bik exist and good in wck, his art will be bound within the Wong wah Poh signature.
And will further bound by Leung jan art of either it is a harder art as chan wah or a side body art as kulo.

To be realitic,
So is Leung bik more close to practice Wck similar with Jim Rosalendo who study with Fung Chun or Chan wah direct grand student in china or Rene Ritchie who have seen Sung Num?




I would say most of us love to think some one has it all and love to safe face instead of telling what it is .

But by evidence, yik kam has the fullest internal elements but Law man Kung has more comprehensive woodern dummy training which yik kam lineage doesn't have.
Because it is an evolution and era dependent. Woodern dummy training evolve and grow after 1850. And those after 1850 doesn't practice internal six core elements and the seven bows as the core 1850. So that is reality.

If yik kam decendent shows a comprehensive woodern dummy set, you know that has to come from law lineage . No point to argue about it on I have it too. Because some one in the line is going to find out the facts in the present or future. So, it is better to be honest then makes things up and get caught.



Check out the siu nim tau set will tell one what is the likely
Nothing comes out of the blue , all is trace able, watch
Sergio part 2 next week .

[GlennR]

Interestingly enough, in this interview that Sifu Sergio did with GM Fung Chun, he notes that Leung Jan had 5 sons, and that one of them moved to Vietnam where he taught Wing Chun. He says that Wong Wah Sam's first student left to Vietnam and stayed to train with him there. Wouldn't it be great to find surviving members of that lineage! I'm surprised Sifu Sergio hasn't tried to track them down!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELEO...ZuvBo&index=58

So who knows? Will the real Leung Bik please stand up!!!!

How about his brother........... Leung Chun

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/...=WCP.LeungChun

Thats my Lineage