Latest WCI and WCK history

[GlennR]

Thanks for the reply Glen!
I wonder if this system's body structure is close to Kulo Pin sun wing chun.

Good Question KFF
Im actually friends with John of Kulo (imperialtaichi) here in Australia and i went to one of his seminars, the body structure is somewhat different.

Ive also, in the early days of here and the wingchunkuen mailing list, asked folks like Jim Roselando and so on what their take is on my lineage/stance ,comparatively speaking, and, to be honest, it didn't seem to elicit much interest.

And i guess thats why all these "historians" like Hendrik get under my skin. Someone comes up with a "lost" lineage, the same family tree pops up in a couple of places across the world, yet they show no interest?
It doesnt personally bother me, but surely if someone is looking for the true DNA or whatever hes on about, wouldnt you exhaust all avenues??

To this day, Hendrik has never asked me one question............ hes already made his mind up

[KPM]

Hooold on a minute there K, I knooow you're not meaning to stereo type, but you hurt my feeling by lumping me and other sane Chinese in there with Hendrik!

My apologies! I should have said "traditional Chinese martial art mindset"!

[KPM]

Im actually friends with John of Kulo (imperialtaichi) here in Australia and i went to one of his seminars, the body structure is somewhat different.

No offense to Dr. John, but I've seen his youtube videos and his body structure and mechanics are nothing like the Pin Sun I learned. Just compare what he does to videos of Jim Roselando and some of the footage he shot in Ku Lo village.


Ive also, in the early days of here and the wingchunkuen mailing list, asked folks like Jim Roselando and so on what their take is on my lineage/stance ,comparatively speaking, and, to be honest, it didn't seem to elicit much interest.

I'm interested! I'd be happy to compare notes.

And i guess thats why all these "historians" like Hendrik get under my skin. Someone comes up with a "lost" lineage, the same family tree pops up in a couple of places across the world, yet they show no interest?

Good point! It would certainly be another data point in the WCK "DNA."


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[GlennR]

No offense to Dr. John, but I've seen his youtube videos and his body structure and mechanics are nothing like the Pin Sun I learned. Just compare what he does to videos of Jim Roselando and some of the footage he shot in Ku Lo village.

Yep, it was a bit foreign to me but it works for John

I'm interested! I'd be happy to compare notes.

Nice to hear Keith, how much Kulo have you done?

Good point! It would certainly be another data point in the WCK "DNA."

True, but he has already come to his own conclusion, why would he bother looking at ALL the information out there

[Minghequan]

Sounds like sour grapes because he chooses not to share his info with you at the moment. Be patient. You should know that this is a typical chinese mindset.

Sour Grapes ........ No. I don't care if he chooses to share or not. It does however kinda get me p@$$ed when he makes a statement yet won't elaborate of follow up upon same when properly asked. Seems to be his modus operandi!

Hendrik .... typical Chinese??? Hmmm well ......................

[LFJ]

surely if someone is looking for the true DNA or whatever hes on about, wouldnt you exhaust all avenues??

To this day, Hendrik has never asked me one question............ hes already made his mind up

Exactly. The only person who takes Hendrik seriously is Sergio, who himself cannot be taken seriously, and it's only because they both share the same wishful thinking and confirmation bias. They don't know how to do real research. While Sergio does go out and actually train with people (I don't believe Hendrik has ever hit a wallbag), he's still an obvious hoodwinker with all the "internal power" bs he tries to pass off.

[Minghequan]

Exactly. The only person who takes Hendrik seriously is Sergio, who himself cannot be taken seriously, and it's only because they both share the same wishful thinking and confirmation bias. They don't know how to do real research. While Sergio does go out and actually train with people (I don't believe Hendrik has ever hit a wallbag), he's still an obvious hoodwinker with all the "internal power" bs he tries to pass off.

Don't forget it's all part of Hendrik's "Typical Chinese Mindset" (WTF?)

Hendrik cites a new Youtube Vid by Sergio as "proof" that his "theories ... more like opinions are right. Last time I looked Youtube was hardly the bastion of real research!

Yes to his credit Sergio indeed does appear to train and perhaps that's something Hendrik should consider before expounding upon anymore theories/opinions?

[LFJ]

Hendrik cites a new Youtube Vid by Sergio as "proof" that his "theories ... more like opinions are right.

It's hardly a corroboration when it's just Sergio regurgitating opinions he got from Hendrik anyway!

[Minghequan]

Yes, so true. And where oh where is the "Hard Evidence?"

[KPM]

Don't forget it's all part of Hendrik's "Typical Chinese Mindset" (WTF?)

So then maybe you don't know what I'm talking about? I thought you had been around traditional CMA for awhile. Oh well. It won't make any difference to continue to beat Hendrik up over this. Believe me! I've been there!

[tc101]

Im actually friends with John of Kulo (imperialtaichi) here in Australia and i went to one of his seminars, the body structure is somewhat different.

No offense to Dr. John, but I've seen his youtube videos and his body structure and mechanics are nothing like the Pin Sun I learned. Just compare what he does to videos of Jim Roselando and some of the footage he shot in Ku Lo village.

No offense to KPM but does not imperialtaichi practice the 22 point system of Ku Lo which is different from the Pin Sun system?

This is just a thought but maybe his body structure mechanics is different since he has moved beyond beginner level and has personalized those things.

[Minghequan]

So then maybe you don't know what I'm talking about? I thought you had been around traditional CMA for awhile. Oh well. It won't make any difference to continue to beat Hendrik up over this. Believe me! I've been there!

I know what your talking about. I just don't apply it to Hendrik as I don't view him as "Traditional Chinese"

[KPM]

No offense to KPM but does not imperialtaichi practice the 22 point system of Ku Lo which is different from the Pin Sun system?

This is just a thought but maybe his body structure mechanics is different since he has moved beyond beginner level and has personalized those things.

KL22 is a "spin off" from Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun that was created by Fung Lim. Fung Lim had an extensive background in other things before learning KLPSWCK. But he sent his son, Fung Sang, back to Ku Lo village to study rather than pass on to him the KL22 point system that he had created.

But you be the judge. Here is Dr. John Fung doing his thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHFCQpybZY

He may very well have "personalized" things quite a bit, because here is KL 22 from China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPlKEkh6SGE

Here is Fung Keung, Fung Chun's son, doing some Ku Lo Pin Sun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYhJn9OfeBs

Here is Jim Roselando showing a basic Ku Lo Pin Sun drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgtMinXHDtQ

Glenn, let me characterize the KLPSWCK body mechanic a bit from my experience:
1. Medium width stance in the YGKYM with the heels no wider than the shoulders.
2. The pivot is on the K1 point of the foot, at the middle just behind the ball of the foot.
3. The weight is kept 50/50 throughout the pivot.
4. The stance is very upright, not hunched over or "hollow chest" like in Southern Mantis.
5. The waist or "kwa" is used for power generation and not "locked in" like in many WCK lineages. The "four directions" of typical southern CMAs are used: Swallow, Spit, Sink, Rise.
6. The waist action leads the pivot, not the knees.
7. Techniques like Tun Sao, Lim Sao, and the Got or "cutting" version of Bong and Gan are used much more than in most Yip Man lineages. In fact, from my experience Yip Man WCK hardly uses them at all.

So I'd be interested in hearing how this compares to your system Glenn. Overall, I think KLPSWCK has more in common with Yuen Kay Shan WCK than it does with Yip Man WCK. Which IMHO, kind of puts a wrench in some of the history theorizing that has been done here.

[GlennR]

Glenn, let me characterize the KLPSWCK body mechanic a bit from my experience:
1. Medium width stance in the YGKYM with the heels no wider than the shoulders.
2. The pivot is on the K1 point of the foot, at the middle just behind the ball of the foot.
3. The weight is kept 50/50 throughout the pivot.
4. The stance is very upright, not hunched over or "hollow chest" like in Southern Mantis.
5. The waist or "kwa" is used for power generation and not "locked in" like in many WCK lineages. The "four directions" of typical southern CMAs are used: Swallow, Spit, Sink, Rise.
6. The waist action leads the pivot, not the knees.
7. Techniques like Tun Sao, Lim Sao, and the Got or "cutting" version of Bong and Gan are used much more than in most Yip Man lineages. In fact, from my experience Yip Man WCK hardly uses them at all.

So I'd be interested in hearing how this compares to your system Glenn. Overall, I think KLPSWCK has more in common with Yuen Kay Shan WCK than it does with Yip Man WCK. Which IMHO, kind of puts a wrench in some of the history theorizing that has been done here.

Hi Keith
Ok, as follows
1. Yep, the same but as i said, fist distance between knees
2. Same
3. No, weight is transferred evenly during the turn onto the back leg..... about 70/30
4. Upright, yes.
5. Same again though the four direction term isnt used
6. Spot on
7. I take it you mean cutting the arm away as opposed to sticking to it? A more ballistic motion as Kev would have put it

Nice chat Keith by the way

[tc101]

KL22 is a "spin off" from Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun that was created by Fung Lim. Fung Lim had an extensive background in other things before learning KLPSWCK. But he sent his son, Fung Sang, back to Ku Lo village to study rather than pass on to him the KL22 point system that he had created.

But you be the judge. Here is Dr. John Fung doing his thing:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPkVTBGyCPM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chHFCQpybZY

He may very well have "personalized" things quite a bit, because here is KL 22 from China:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPlKEkh6SGE

Here is Fung Keung, Fung Chun's son, doing some Ku Lo Pin Sun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYhJn9OfeBs

Here is Jim Roselando showing a basic Ku Lo Pin Sun drill:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgtMinXHDtQ

Glenn, let me characterize the KLPSWCK body mechanic a bit from my experience:
1. Medium width stance in the YGKYM with the heels no wider than the shoulders.
2. The pivot is on the K1 point of the foot, at the middle just behind the ball of the foot.
3. The weight is kept 50/50 throughout the pivot.
4. The stance is very upright, not hunched over or "hollow chest" like in Southern Mantis.
5. The waist or "kwa" is used for power generation and not "locked in" like in many WCK lineages. The "four directions" of typical southern CMAs are used: Swallow, Spit, Sink, Rise.
6. The waist action leads the pivot, not the knees.
7. Techniques like Tun Sao, Lim Sao, and the Got or "cutting" version of Bong and Gan are used much more than in most Yip Man lineages. In fact, from my experience Yip Man WCK hardly uses them at all.

So I'd be interested in hearing how this compares to your system Glenn. Overall, I think KLPSWCK has more in common with Yuen Kay Shan WCK than it does with Yip Man WCK. Which IMHO, kind of puts a wrench in some of the history theorizing that has been done here.

Ok I see what you mean by those are common traits of Pin Sun and Fung does things differently. You probably will not agree with me but here is how I look at it. Those mechanics and common traits are beginner level. Maybe as you say they are common to how beginners are taught to move in Pin Sun. I learned that in wing chun like in boxing you learn beginner level mechanics and structure which is intended to be modified and personalized. It is a starting point to begin to find your own way. Sometimes when people teach they do not teach as they learned things but they are still teaching what they learned. That is what I meant by my comment.