Question for you WC guys?

[Subitai]

Happened to browsing around some vids and came across this guy:

Skip to around the 7min mark




I notice he's talking about the use of a triangle in his attack. Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.

Would you WC buffs say that is a more modern adaptation? Because I rarely see WC guys trying to hit without a sunken elbow. If you want to contribute by all means...

Also NO, i'm not trolling you guys. It's winter and I can't go bass fishing right now so cut me some slack.

[LFJ]

Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.

Cover himself from what? He's on the inside.

Without referring exactly to what this guy was doing or the rest of the video, we're talking basically about the taan-sau position in daan-chi-sau. The vertical palm is a taan shape that raises the elbow as it strikes. It's the rising of the taan-sau that threatens the one in fuk-sau position on the outside, forcing them to cover with jam-sau and to be unable to strike. Keeping the elbow buried in a fuk shape on the inside would be weak. It would make it easy for the person in fuk-sau position on the outside to deflect and strike straight away through the gap.

[Subitai]

Well i don't think i could be more clear when i asked about the punch he's talking about at around 7mins to 7:16 or so....you know vertical fist ala "Yut gi choi" (spelling?) with his right elbow raised outward as he punches...in order to cover his high line. I'm talking about his punch not his blocks.

It sparked my curiosity because of the triangle coverage he's talking about. The part where he says, " I don't punch him like this(sunk elbow)...I punch him more open (with raised elbow)"


You can see he's trying to negate the possibility of his student hitting him with the left overhand. But that's what makes the inside line dangerous...really if they both throw together they could be trading blows. That problem is for everybody and every style attempting this btw...obviously you have to be brave.

After he shows it he tries to cover his words abit and says: "It still it's not safe - but I have contact" ... but it doesn't change the fact that most WC I see punch from the center with elbow sunk.

Mabe it's just my poor observation this cold morning...or is this common in WC?

Hey no worries, a little higher and some more shoulder rotation and you basically have a right cross. Why not, the rest of the world is already doing it. It's a common move for Bouncers to reach out Grab/punch/block and shove all at the same time similar to that.

[LFJ]

Well i don't think i could be more clear when i asked about the punch he's talking about at around 7mins to 7:16 or so....you know vertical fist ala "Yut gi choi" (spelling?) with his right elbow raised outward as he punches...in order to cover his high line. I'm talking about his punch not his blocks.

I know. I wasn't talking about blocks either. I was talking about attacking with a taan concept, rising and spreading, while on the inside gate. It's a superior shape given the position and can be done with a fist. It's not what this guy's doing, but it addresses your doubt as to why one wouldn't always punch with a low buried elbow. On the inside gate there is nothing to cover with the buried elbow, since the opponent's arm is coming high from the outside (in the scenario presented). A buried elbow punch would not only serve little/no purpose for protection, but would be a weak shape against the opponent who could shift, deflect and strike through the gap.

But as KPM said, in any case, you can't just stand there and trade even blows without affecting the opponent. The outside gate is always safer, but even on the inside one must use footwork and pressuring well to not be stood in this position of danger in the first place.

Flaring the elbow out like that in an awkward punch has no foundation for power- doesn't use the hip (wing chun) and doesn't use rotation (western boxing). It's a weak and vulnerable position that I wouldn't recommend. Whether it is a modern adaptation, I don't know. I'm not sure no other lineages use it. But we here seem to be in agreement. Not our cups of tea.

[tc101]

Happened to browsing around some vids and came across this guy:

Skip to around the 7min mark




I notice he's talking about the use of a triangle in his attack. Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.

Would you WC buffs say that is a more modern adaptation? Because I rarely see WC guys trying to hit without a sunken elbow. If you want to contribute by all means...

Also NO, i'm not trolling you guys. It's winter and I can't go bass fishing right now so cut me some slack.

Can you tell me what triangles have to do with wing chun? Triangles. My good God.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=tc101;1262721]Can you tell me what triangles have to do with wing chun? Triangles. My good God.[/QUOTE
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Triangles when done right are important in my wing chun. The motion illustrated in the clip is not my cup of tea.

[tc101]

Can you tell me what triangles have to do with wing chun? Triangles. My good God.
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Triangles when done right are important in my wing chun. The motion illustrated in the clip is not my cup of tea.

There are no triangles. I understand that some teachers use references to triangles - always a bad idea IMO - to teach beginners but beyond that wing chun is dynamic. There are no shapes there is only dynamic actions. You really think that is fighting at full speed you will be posing shapes? Sure if you take a snapshot at a certain time mid action you MAY say it looks like a two sided triangle but that is more or less an illusion.

[KPM]

I notice he's talking about the use of a triangle in his attack. Literally demonstrating NOT keeping the elbow sunk whilst punching to help cover himself.

There ARE several triangles in Wing Chun. But this typically isn't one of them. This kind of punch isn't my cup of tea either. He thinks he is defending against the opponent's left hand while he is punching.....but what if the opponent was punching low rather than high? His mistake is....here it comes tc101....he hasn't broken his opponent's structure. If he did this well, the opponent's left hand wouldn't be a threat at all and he wouldn't have to have his elbow waggling outward like that.


Would you WC buffs say that is a more modern adaptation? Because I rarely see WC guys trying to hit without a sunken elbow. If you want to contribute by all means...

Yeah. It would call that a modern adaptation.

Also NO, i'm not trolling you guys. It's winter and I can't go bass fishing right now so cut me some slack.

Aren't there some re-runs of fishing shows on TV?

[tc101]

There ARE several triangles in Wing Chun.

No no no some teachers use triangles in their explanations when they teach wing chun. This is a very bad idea since it leads to this kind of thing. There are no shapes or poses only dynamic actions.

But this typically isn't one of them. This kind of punch isn't my cup of tea either. He thinks he is defending against the opponent's left hand while he is punching.....but what if the opponent was punching low rather than high? His mistake is....here it comes tc101....he hasn't broken his opponent's structure. If he did this well, the opponent's left hand wouldn't be a threat at all and he wouldn't have to have his elbow waggling outward like that.

People who do not have much experience sparring have a tendency to assume they will or should be able to do things. You say he should break the opponents structure.Ok but what it he can't? Is he just fxxked then? When you fight or spar you must be able to deal with the situation. What do you do if you find yourself in that situation and were unable to break his structure? Do you just give up?

[KPM]

No no no some teachers use triangles in their explanations when they teach wing chun. This is a very bad idea since it leads to this kind of thing. There are no shapes or poses only dynamic actions.

The idea of a triangle is a guide for alignment. Alignment happens dynamically. I don't see the use of triangles as implying holding a shape or pose at all.



People who do not have much experience sparring have a tendency to assume they will or should be able to do things. You say he should break the opponents structure.Ok but what it he can't? Is he just fxxked then? When you fight or spar you must be able to deal with the situation. What do you do if you find yourself in that situation and were unable to break his structure? Do you just give up?

Like LFJ said, he shouldn't have gotten himself into this position to begin with! He doesn't say anything in his narrative about this being an "oh ****!" kind of move to cover a bad situation. He implies it is standard practice. I'm surprised you aren't saying "this guy obviously does not train realistically or spar with his Wing Chun because if he did he would know just putting your elbow out with a weak punch isn't going to protect against a shot from the opponent's left hand." If I was faced with a similar kind of "oh ****!" situation I would likely step into the opponent and to his right away from his left hand while breaking his structure with a Lop or palm to the face, etc. Standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake.

tc101, you tend to view Wing Chun is a sparring context....facing off with an opponent where both sides expect a fight and are going to exchange tit for tat. I view Wing Chun in a street defense context where the opponent won't necessarily expect you to put up a fight, where you are probably already within striking distance of each other and don't have to close, and the opponent is not necessarily a highly trained and conditioned MMA fighter!

[tc101]

No no no some teachers use triangles in their explanations when they teach wing chun. This is a very bad idea since it leads to this kind of thing. There are no shapes or poses only dynamic actions.

The idea of a triangle is a guide for alignment. Alignment happens dynamically. I don't see the use of triangles as implying holding a shape or pose at all.

Yes yes it is an idea for beginners that some use to explain alignment only there is no triangle in reality.

People who do not have much experience sparring have a tendency to assume they will or should be able to do things. You say he should break the opponents structure.Ok but what it he can't? Is he just fxxked then? When you fight or spar you must be able to deal with the situation. What do you do if you find yourself in that situation and were unable to break his structure? Do you just give up?

Like LFJ said, he shouldn't have gotten himself into this position to begin with! He doesn't say anything in his narrative about this being an "oh ****!" kind of move to cover a bad situation. He implies it is standard practice. I'm surprised you aren't saying "this guy obviously does not train realistically or spar with his Wing Chun because if he did he would know just putting your elbow out with a weak punch isn't going to protect against a shot from the opponent's left hand." If I was faced with a similar kind of "oh ****!" situation I would likely step into the opponent and to his right away from his left hand while breaking his structure with a Lop or palm to the face, etc. Standing directly in front of an opponent and trading blows is a mistake.

Here is the reality you will very very very often or let's say most often in sparring or fighting find yourself in situations you do not want to be in. THAT is the nature of fighting. THAT is what your opponent is trying to do to you he is trying to put you in situations you do not want to be in. This is why I hate it when guys who do not spar or fight start talking about what to do in sparring or fighting. Things most often do not work as you want them to. Your statement of I would step this way while breaking his structure is a good example. You might TRY that but you cannot count on being able to do it.

Your trading blows is a mistake comment proves to me you do not spar and have not trained with a fight trainer because this view is only held by people who do not spar or fight. Here is the good advice you will hear again and again from good fight trainers- when in doubt trade punches. If he is hitting you at least you will be making him pay for it that way. Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how you think things should go in sparring. I am telling you how you think they should go is not how they really go and that the only way to really grasp that is through experience.

tc101, you tend to view Wing Chun is a sparring context....facing off with an opponent where both sides expect a fight and are going to exchange tit for tat. I view Wing Chun in a street defense context where the opponent won't necessarily expect you to put up a fight, where you are probably already within striking distance of each other and don't have to close, and the opponent is not necessarily a highly trained and conditioned MMA fighter!

I look at wing chun from a fighting context because how else can you look at it? Sparring is where we practice for fighting. I do not train for best case scenarios where my opponent can't fight is out of shape and expects me to just stand there and take what he dishes. I train for worst case scenarios where my opponent can fight is in shape and expects me to put up a fight. If I can deal with worst case the best case is easy.

[KPM]

Yes yes it is an idea for beginners that some use to explain alignment only there is no triangle in reality.

Triangular alignment is just a real as the centerline, the inside/outside line, etc. Sure, its an idea for beginners. But that doesn't mean you stop using it when no longer a beginner! Good alignment is important in Wing Chun.

Here is the reality you will very very very often or let's say most often in sparring or fighting find yourself in situations you do not want to be in. THAT is the nature of fighting.

Of course. Where did I say otherwise?

This is why I hate it when guys who do not spar or fight start talking about what to do in sparring or fighting. Things most often do not work as you want them to. Your statement of I would step this way while breaking his structure is a good example. You might TRY that but you cannot count on being able to do it.

Dude, you are SO full of it! I said "likely" as in I would do what the situation dictated at the time. I was simply giving a "for example". I really hate it when guys that are so focused on sparring forget that fighting on the street is NOT the same thing. I really hate it when someone's response to almost every thread is "you obviously do not spar or fight".

Your trading blows is a mistake comment proves to me you do not spar and have not trained with a fight trainer because this view is only held by people who do not spar or fight. Here is the good advice you will hear again and again from good fight trainers- when in doubt trade punches.

Again....here is the fundamental difference between someone so focused on gym sparring and forgetting the reality (uh oh, did I say reality?) of real fighting. On the street I don't know if the guy has knife or not. I WILL NOT stand in front of him and trade blows if I can help it because one of his blows may very well be delivered with a blade! When in doubt, and given the opportunity....RUN!

Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how you think things should go in sparring. I am telling you how you think they should go is not how they really go and that the only way to really grasp that is through experience.

I'm telling you that I don't give a **** how things will go in sparring. You are "Mr. Reality" but your reality seems to end at the door to your gym.


I look at wing chun from a fighting context because how else can you look at it?

As self-protection. As street-defense. As combative training. None of those are the same as competitive sparring. Now you will want to argue with me why you think this is crazy because you will explain to me how things go in sparring. But I'll ask you this....why does every example of Wing Chun sparring typically look nothing like the Wing Chun we practice. Even Alan Orr's guys that have had good success lose good Wing Chun form when sparring. So why practice it the way we do and not the way it looks in sparring? The thing that seems to work the best in competitive sparring is some form of kickboxing. So if competitive sparring is your thing, why not just practice kickboxing? If you are so focused on competitive sparring, why are you not doing MMA instead of Wing Chun? Why waste time with forms, and Chi Sao, etc when you could just spar with kickboxing all the time???


I do not train for best case scenarios where my opponent can't fight is out of shape and expects me to just stand there and take what he dishes. I train for worst case scenarios where my opponent can fight is in shape and expects me to put up a fight. If I can deal with worst case the best case is easy.

Yeah, but even in your "worst case" scenario in competitive sparring you have time to face off with the opponent, you have a pretty good idea what he is going to do, you are prepared for what might come. Are you prepared to deal with a knife? Are you ready for a surprise scenario where the opponent closes on you before you even know he is there? All I said is that the typical street thug is not going to be a highly conditioned or highly trained MMA fighter. Dirty tricks, blind-side attacks, and use of weapons are more likely than Jabs, roundhouse kicks, and wrestling takedowns. That's the reality I'm talking about!