Chi Sao Competition in Russia

[Eric_H]

Sir, it was just my Opinion.now please tell me why Im wrong.
Do you know what CHI-SAO MEANS? if you do please enlighten me.

No problem, good sir

Don't confuse the looping exercise called chi sao (tahn/bong/fook) for the skill of chi sao (being able to stick with the bridge).

Free hand hitting (sometimes referred to as san da or gor sao or whatever) and Chi Sao are two sides of the same coin, you can't really being doing one without the other and call it complete. You have to be able to flip in and out of each mode instantly - if someone doesn't lock you into a situation that requires the ability to stick and bridge, you should hit.

[BPWT..]

No problem, good sir

Don't confuse the looping exercise called chi sao (tahn/bong/fook) for the skill of chi sao (being able to stick with the bridge).

Free hand hitting (sometimes referred to as san da or gor sao or whatever) and Chi Sao are two sides of the same coin, you can't really being doing one without the other and call it complete. You have to be able to flip in and out of each mode instantly - if someone doesn't lock you into a situation that requires the ability to stick and bridge, you should hit.

Perfect description!

[Cheito Ito]

No problem, good sir

Don't confuse the looping exercise called chi sao (tahn/bong/fook) for the skill of chi sao (being able to stick with the bridge).

Free hand hitting (sometimes referred to as san da or gor sao or whatever) and Chi Sao are two sides of the same coin, you can't really being doing one without the other and call it complete. You have to be able to flip in and out of each mode instantly - if someone doesn't lock you into a situation that requires the ability to stick and bridge, you should hit.

I will not debate with you sir.but I will advise you to be more diligent on your search.nevertheless thank you for YOUR ANSWER

[Eric_H]

I will not debate with you sir.but I will advise you to be more diligent on your search.nevertheless thank you for YOUR ANSWER

12 years in and I'm still searching, not above learning something if you have stuff to share. Send me a PM if you change your mind.

[JPinAZ]

No problem, good sir

Don't confuse the looping exercise called chi sao (tahn/bong/fook) for the skill of chi sao (being able to stick with the bridge).

Free hand hitting (sometimes referred to as san da or gor sao or whatever) and Chi Sao are two sides of the same coin, you can't really being doing one without the other and call it complete. You have to be able to flip in and out of each mode instantly - if someone doesn't lock you into a situation that requires the ability to stick and bridge, you should hit.

I agree. If you can't recognise the difference of when you should stick & when you should hit, then you will most likely start chasing hands in a desire to 'stick' when it is not appropriate. IMO, in a very basic sense our main goal in wig chun should be to hit. Only when our way is blocked is chi sau necessary to clear the way to hit.

And I appreciate the the 2 sides of the same coin analogy and feel it can be summed up with the wing chun kuit:
loi lau hoi sung (stick or 'chi'/heads),
lat sau jik chung (hit/tails)

[LFJ]

Only when our way is blocked is chi sau necessary to clear the way to hit...
...loi lau hoi sung (stick or 'chi'/heads),

This means stick (LL) and follow (HS) to you? How do you clear something from the way when you're stuck to it?

[BPWT..]

How do you clear something from the way when you're stuck to it?

If you're static you can't, but contact/stick has motion too (i.e. your arm driving forward from the elbow, and/or you body turning and/or you footwork shifting or stepping, etc). So for us, you're clearing a line of attack - sometimes the stick is broken as you move the other guy's arm completely out of the way as you go forward (sometimes they might remove it themselves), and sometimes you create a new line of attack and go forward while contact is still made (e.g. if you strike with a straight punch and I intercept your strike with a straight punch of my own, but I have/create a better angle and so my punch gets to its target as it deflects your own punch. In that example, there is still contact as the line of attack is cleared - or maybe it is better to say a new line of attack is created).

Erik said: "You have to be able to flip in and out of each mode instantly."

One of my teachers refers to this as "breaking in, breaking out," and it's about distance too. As your opponent does his best to play his game and not yours, the range constantly changes - so you're moving in and out of these ranges.

[LFJ]

sometimes the stick is broken as you move the other guy's arm completely out of the way as you go forward (sometimes they might remove it themselves),

If the saying is about sticking, wouldn't "pursue what departs" mean to stick and follow?

If you stick and follow with one limb, you must use the other to strike. Then you no longer have the lin siu daai da function with one limb.

if you strike with a straight punch and I intercept your strike with a straight punch of my own, but I have/create a better angle and so my punch gets to its target as it deflects your own punch. In that example, there is still contact as the line of attack is cleared - or maybe it is better to say a new line of attack is created).

If a car speeds through an intersection and sideswipes another car we wouldn't say it was sticking to it. There is no sticking taking place there, just a collision that happens if the timing is right because of the intersecting paths.

[BPWT..]

If a car speeds through an intersection and sideswipes another car we wouldn't say it was sticking to it. There is no sticking taking place there, just a collision that happens if the timing is right because of the intersecting paths.

Sure - well, kinda , but I think it just comes back to us using a different definition of sticking. LT describes Chi Sau as 'clinging arm', which was a translation I hadn't heard before. Not too long ago a Chi Sau thread was resurrected and there was a post (from years and years ago), where someone else (Terrance) offered the same definition - so I found it interesting as before I'd only head this from the LT line.

Anyways, Terrance wrote: "The Chinese term "chi" denotes two grains of rice that cling (hence another interpretation of chi sao is "arm clinging") together, expressing the notion of a certain degree of attachment (not too solid and not too fragile)."

So yes, I wouldn't call a car collision "not too solid, not too fragile", but I would describe a punch intercepting another punch as having "a certain degree of attachment", which is also not too solid and not too fragile.

[LFJ]

Sure - well, kinda , but I think it just comes back to us using a different definition of sticking.

Well, in any case, chi-sau is just a visual description of the drills we do. In fact, right from the start in daan-chi-sau, the way we train it, there are parts that specifically train us not to stick. It stops us from thinking of sticking and following as these are seen as errors in what we do.

[BPWT..]

If the saying is about sticking, wouldn't "pursue what departs" mean to stick and follow? If you stick and follow with one limb, you must use the other to strike. Then you no longer have the lin siu daai da function with one limb.

I think the idea is always to strike the opponent - but to do so while limiting the other guy's options to do the same.

So you wouldn't want to stick and follow under any circumstances - I mean you wouldn't stick and follow if you had the opportunity to strike, and you wouldn't stick and follow if doing that required you to violate the WT positioning you want to keep (e.g. if someone moves their arms away from their center I would not want to follow that movement but rather move in to control the good line they'd given up).

So LLHS is a principle but it doesn't override the principle of LSJC - as striking the opponent (while not being struck ourselves) is always the goal.

LSDD is optimal too - but maybe not always possible. You'd want this function with one limb, but can you always have it? I'd say no, not always.

[Cheito Ito]

If you're static you can't, but contact/stick has motion too (i.e. your arm driving forward from the elbow, and/or you body turning and/or you footwork shifting or stepping, etc). So for us, you're clearing a line of attack - sometimes the stick is broken as you move the other guy's arm completely out of the way as you go forward (sometimes they might remove it themselves), and sometimes you create a new line of attack and go forward while contact is still made (e.g. if you strike with a straight punch and I intercept your strike with a straight punch of my own, but I have/create a better angle and so my punch gets to its target as it deflects your own punch. In that example, there is still contact as the line of attack is cleared - or maybe it is better to say a new line of attack is created).

Erik said: "You have to be able to flip in and out of each mode instantly."

One of my teachers refers to this as "breaking in, breaking out," and it's about distance too. As your opponent does his best to play his game and not yours, the range constantly changes - so you're moving in and out of these ranges.

in chi sao, contact between you and your opp. is to feel your opp.force, his direction,his strenght, and his weakness.also his balance.feel his structure of his body and his limbs.always guarding your center, as you use your.receiving your opp. force,than neutralize his force.to me this is chi sao. anything else gor sao, or sparring. or fighting.again just my POV.

Cheito Ito.