San Sik training and Ku Lo Pin Sun WCK

[KPM]

I wanted to address some issues here that have come up on several threads because I have been thinking about them. I can get "set on things" just like anyone else, but I try to keep an open mind and consider what others have to say. So I've been thinking about these things and considering them and this is what has come to mind.

First is the idea that Leung Jan couldn't have taught much when he retired to Ku Lo Village. The opinion has been stated here was that he just taught his Ku Lo students "some basics drills". Since LJ was an old man close to death he couldn't have taught much to his final group of students. So he just taught a few San Sik. Then someone later in the lineage elaborated on this and created the Ku Lo Pin Sun Wing Chun system.

Second is the idea that a Wing Chun system needs the Siu Lim Tao form to be complete. The form teaches specific body mechanics, Chi flow, "force handling", and "gong" that is essential for Wing Chun. These qualities are not taught by San Sik training.

I have expressed the opinion that both of these positions are really an insult to Dr. Leung Jan's memory. Both people supporting these views have disagreed. So let me tell you why I believe what I believe.

Leung Jan's Ku Lo students documented many things. Many of these documents were lost in a fire, but many others still remain. Fung Chun was Leung Jan's grand-student and lived a long life only dying a few years back in his mid-90's. He was alert and had all his faculties up to the end. So he was a living repository of KLPSWCK history.

So what do the Ku Lo people say about their background? They say that Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo village for 3 years prior to his death. They say that he viewed what he taught as the culmination of his lifetime study of Wing Chun and years of fighting experience. They do not say that he was old and decrepit and on his deathbed for most of those last 3 years.

Now I'm not doing like many others have done and trying to say..."look at my Wing Chun! It is the best out there and better than everyone elses! It is Leung Jan's final gift to the world!!!!" No, that is not my point. I'm sure the whole "culmination of a lifetime" is a bit of an exaggeration. But the fact is that the Ku Lo people do NOT say that LJ just taught a few basics because he was sickly and then Wong Wah Sam elaborated on them. No, they say that this is Leung Jan's system that he carefully and thoughtfully constructed.

So I accept that KLPSWCK was what Leung Jan taught during his final years. I accept that he saw this as an opportunity to really "drill down" what he thought was the important elements of his WCK and put it in a format that was a little easier and faster to learn. I don't have any reason to doubt what the Ku Lo people have said about their history. Why would others doubt it? LJ was in his late 70's and likely knew he wasn't going to have another 10 years to teach someone. He had technically "retired", so he probably saw this as an opportunity to rethink things and experiment with a different approach.

Is 3 years enough? You are not going to turn anyone into a "master" in 3 years, but I think it is plenty of time to give someone a solid foundation. The Ku Lo people do not describe LJ as old and decrepit. He could have been a very vibrant and active teacher up until his death. For all we know he may have died suddenly and unexpectedly in his sleep from a heart attack or stroke. To assume that because he was old that he couldn't teach good WCK is pretty silly. After all, look at Pan Nam. He was quite old before he came to the attention of WCK people in the west. Yet he managed to transmit his entire system to Eddie Chong, and it is a lot more elaborate than KLPSWCK.

Now lets look at the SLT idea. WCK people agree that this is a very important form that teaches most of the fundamentals. It makes sense that if a WCK expert knew he had limited time but wanted to train up some students, he would teach them the SLT form. Then he would start showing them how to apply it by teaching drills that illustrated each important aspect. You could drop the Chum Kiu and Biu Gee forms and center your drills around expanding concepts from the SNT form, adding footwork to it, and showing fighting applications. That would be much faster than teaching the entire system. That's probably what I would have done! But LJ didn't do this.

We all acknowledge LJ as an expert in Wing Chun. So, would such an expert not realize that the complete SLT form was the only way to effectively train the mechanics and "gong" of good WCK? Would such an expert NOT teach his students the SLT form as a whole if this was true? 3 years is plenty of time to teach someone the SLT form and then show them how to use footwork and apply its teachings. But LJ didn't do that.

So that is why I believe that for someone to say that Wing Chun is incomplete without the SLT form and that San Sik cannot train the proper "gong" is an insult to Leung Jan's memory. Leung Jan chose NOT to teach the SLT form as a whole (when he had plenty of time to do so) and instead reorganized his material into a San Sik format. So for individuals to state that Wing Chun is incomplete without the entire SLT form is to say that Leung Jan didn't know what he was doing. Simple as that!

I also believe that for someone to continue to say that Leung Jan just taught "some basic drills" when he retired to Ku Lo village is also an insult to Leung Jan's memory and to his Ku Lo students. They maintain a history that says that Leung Jan carefully reorganized and restructured his Wing Chun method for his Ku Lo students. I think the way he did this is pretty ingenious and is not likely something that a farmer with very little background in martial arts would have come up with. If you are interested in how Leung Jan structured things, I have described this on other thread.

Again, I am NOT trying to say that KLPSWCK is better than anyone else's WCK. I'm simply saying that KLPSWCK is good WCK just like many others, even though it is taught in a little different format.

Thanks for indulging me my little essay. I just wanted to set things straight to counter some rather uninformed opinions that have been floating around.

[zuti car]

I agree with everything you say , there is just one thing i would like to point out . You sad we cannot turn anyone into a master in 3 years , yet , most of Yip Man's students trained under him exactly that much , only few of them trained more than 3 or 4 years. And now, all those people are grandmasters and they teach or taught complete systems . If 3 years was enough for yip man to make 20 or more grandmsters , it was certainly enough for leung jan to pass complete system to couple of students.

[deejaye72]

a friend of mine who trained with sifu Francis Fong here in Atlanta Ga, told me Francis would always say " wing chun takes 3 years to
learn and 5 years to master". now, i think it takes a lifetime to master but, i see his point.

[Cho Gar]

After seeing the YouTube video of the late master Fung Chun where he's showing Sergio some chi Sao techniques, I'd have to say that the system he inherited was more than just a few basic drills. He definitely had the old wing chun 'flavour'.
I think what matters is what is passed down and not so much the method of doing so.

[BPWT..]

I know someone who learned the whole LT Wing Tsun system in about 4 years... but he lived in HK and trained 6 days a week with his Sifu, in addition to solo training and working with other students outside of regular lessons.

[KPM]

I agree with everything you say , there is just one thing i would like to point out . You sad we cannot turn anyone into a master in 3 years , yet , most of Yip Man's students trained under him exactly that much , only few of them trained more than 3 or 4 years. And now, all those people are grandmasters and they teach or taught complete systems . If 3 years was enough for yip man to make 20 or more grandmsters , it was certainly enough for leung jan to pass complete system to couple of students.

Good point!!!

[Vajramusti]

I agree with everything you say , there is just one thing i would like to point out . You sad we cannot turn anyone into a master in 3 years , yet , most of Yip Man's students trained under him exactly that much , only few of them trained more than 3 or 4 years. And now, all those people are grandmasters and they teach or taught complete systems . If 3 years was enough for yip man to make 20 or more grandmsters , it was certainly enough for leung jan to pass complete system to couple of students.

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A contrary view- dont care to argue. Ip Man's best students were/are those who spent quality time for 6 years or more
before 1962. For all intenta nd purposes he slowed down his teaching after that.


A grandmaster these days is anyone who starts his own line- not a designation of knowledge or skill.

BTW many people including me do 3 motion combinations of various kinds- I dont use the term "forms" for them.

In a Sergio video the late KL sifu was comparing and contrasting KL with "Foshan wc"-he sad thatht KL does not have slt, ck, bj etc
but they(KL) have 3 motion combinations which Foshan supposedly does not. In the last part of the statement he is mistaken.
I do lots of San Sik, It is not uncommon to teach san sik motions at the start before teaching the full slt... and continue to have san sik drills.

But- I am not urging people to follow my path. I really dont try to get people to abandon whatever they are doing.
I sometimes comment when I think a misrepresentation of good IM wc ha[[ens... even then I dont go into auto reflex.

Cheers and bye for a while.

joy chaudhuri

PS- Glenn it is indeed too bad that Anerlich has not beeb posting. His posts are generally incisive and humorous.

[KPM]

But- I am not urging people to follow my path. I really dont try to get people to abandon whatever they are doing.

No one else has either.


I sometimes comment when I think a misrepresentation of good IM wc ha[[ens... even then I dont go into auto reflex.

And I have commented when I think a misrepresentation of good KLPS happens.

[zuti car]

We have this thing that comes from Yip Man's followersmost of them say all other styles are incomplete or in some other way inferior . I wonder why this thing happens.

[KPM]

I'd just like to point out again, to avoid any further misconceptions, that from a KLPSWCK perspective a "San Sik" is not just a "drill." That's like saying that Chi Sao is just a "drill." That's like saying that the SNT form is just a "drill." Technically true, but there is more to it than what the word "drill" implies. And it seems to me that Joy tends to use the word "drill" in almost a derogatory and demeaning fashion. Despite what I have written if you read his post he still seems to view what Leung Jan taught in Ku Lo village as just some basic drills. If you took a technique, say a Bong Sao, and practiced it over and over to get it down...maybe put some footwork into it...that is a "drill." If you added a Tan Sau and a punch to it and practiced this over and over that would still be a "drill." You could also refer to this as a "San Sik", and here is where the misconceptions arise. Many people do drills this way and never bother to call them San Sik. But you could if you wanted to.

In contrast, when KLPSWCK uses the term "San Sik" when referring to a 3 step drill as well, but it is taken further than this. Each of these 3 step (sometimes more steps) San Sik are also trained on the dummy. They are trained in a 2 man format that illustrates how they are applied or the concept they are teaching. They are trained in Chi Sao. As the student progresses they learn how one can combine or transition into another, how one can be used to counter the moves from another, etc. It truly is as if you broke your SNT form (or any other form) down into parts and trained the parts individually as a drill, on the dummy, and with a partner.

I like this approach. It is very "modular". But maybe its not for everyone. Again, it is simply Wing Chun trained in another format. For someone to continue to talk down about KLPSWCK as just a collection of "drills" is really showing that they know nothing about it.

[Vajramusti]

We have this thing that comes from Yip Man's followersmost of them say all other styles are incomplete or in some other way inferior . I wonder why this thing happens.

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Zuti car- you are creating somewhat of a straw man. I do a line of wing chun that comes from Ip Man. But I do NOT think that wing chun- of any kind- is the only thing for fighting, self defense, health or art.
There are many systems which when well done with a good practitioner, can be well done. What I do is best for me. I speak for myself but good people in my line do not spend time criticizing others.
I would not jump to the conclusion that you seem to have made in your post.

But my interest in varieties of martial arts and activities is quite extensive.

[zuti car]

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Zuti car- you are creating somewhat of a straw man. I do a line of wing chun that comes from Ip Man. But I do NOT think that wing chun- of any kind- is the only thing for fighting, self defense, health or art.
There are many systems which when well done with a good practitioner, can be well done. What I do is best for me. I speak for myself but good people in my line do not spend time criticizing others.
I would not jump to the conclusion that you seem to have made in your post.

But my interest in varieties of martial arts and activities is quite extensive.

My impression is that wast majority of Yip Man's style followers are trying to prove, a great number of them probably subconsciously, how their art is somehow better than others . One more time, it is my impression , other people can see things differently .

[tc101]

My impression is that wast majority of Yip Man's style followers are trying to prove, a great number of them probably subconsciously, how their art is somehow better than others . One more time, it is my impression , other people can see things differently .

Yes I think many in wing chun fall for that silly idea of how my art or system is better than yours. Do you notice it is never I am better than you but instead my system is better than yours? It is so strange.

[zuti car]

Yes I think many in wing chun fall for that silly idea of how my art or system is better than yours. Do you notice it is never I am better than you but instead my system is better than yours? It is so strange.

It is not strange , "my style is better than yours" is equivalent to "my dad is stronger than yours" and " my mom is prettier than yours" ,and it is a clear evidence about the level of maturity of the person who is making such statement .

[tc101]

It is not strange , "my style is better than yours" is equivalent to "my dad is stronger than yours" and " my mom is prettier than yours" ,and it is a clear evidence about the level of maturity of the person who is making such statement .

Well it is strange and I think it has more to do than just maturity. Boxers for instance never talk that way since they know it is not about system but about the individual including talent drive effort and so forth. They talk about how they are better not their system or their trainer lol.