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Thread: HFY History

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    "...when I was still involved in TWC" ...
    Zuti, I didn't realize that you weren't in TWC anymore. What is your affiliation these days?
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  2. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    Without a title I would think this is a training session i some of the TWC clubs in Serbia , besides the form everything else I did when I was still involved in TWC , footwork ,drills , "techniques " ...
    Hello zuti_car,

    I'm sure as more of our system is shared on video that you as a former TWC guy will be able to see what we are doing differently relatively clearly. It's unfortunate for the people who are genuinely interested in seeing what we are doing that we as an org choose not share more, but we've had a number of instances that I think make us as an organization reluctant to share. A few of them just off the top of my head:

    1) Someone from turkey downloading and using our photos and claiming to be a master of the "HFY Free International Organization"
    2) Another guy claiming a Sifu from LA (who after some basic investigation couldn't be proven to even exist) who supposedly learned from my Sigung
    3) Another character who came to our school, and took our information to write articles on it as if it were his own stuff.
    4) Some other lineages taking and using our bowing, form structure and theory mixed with other styles to manufacture something new.

    When every time you put something out there, somebody takes it as their own, it makes you less likely to want to put things out.

  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_H View Post
    When every time you put something out there, somebody takes it as their own, it makes you less likely to want to put things out.
    Why would someone feel like that? It's not what you put out there that matters it's what you can do that matters.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    Why would someone feel like that? It's not what you put out there that matters it's what you can do that matters.
    Besides Eric already having given 4 quick examples to support HFY's reluctance to share, your second sentence pretty supports the argument of not needing to put out videos at all yeah?
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Besides Eric already having given 4 quick examples to support HFY's reluctance to share, your second sentence pretty supports the argument of not needing to put out videos at all yeah?
    Those examples are meaningless. So what if people take information? Everything there is to know about wrestling or boxing or whatever is out there right? Sum Nung said he would show you his entire system. It's your training and how hard you work at it that gives any of it meaning or importance. If you did not train like Sum did you would not get results like Sum did. Just like anyone can get all the info on boxing.

  6. #21
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    Is it Possible that Hung Fah Yi was used in the Boxer Rebellion like Southern mantis was Iron Ox Southern Mantis was used in it a guy name Iron Ox Choi taught his system to the Boxers maybe Hung Fa Yi was taught to the Boxers maybe thats why we dont see much of the Hung Fa versions of Wing Chun . I am going to look into the Arts that was used into the Boxer Rebellion arts in Canton China during the Boxer Rebellion .

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    Those examples are meaningless. So what if people take information? Everything there is to know about wrestling or boxing or whatever is out there right? Sum Nung said he would show you his entire system. It's your training and how hard you work at it that gives any of it meaning or importance. If you did not train like Sum did you would not get results like Sum did. Just like anyone can get all the info on boxing.
    I understand what Eric is saying. He is talking about putting out information that is then exploited by someone else for personal gain with no credit being given or "honesty" in marketing. That is an unfortunate problem for a group like HFY that does indeed have a "brand" to protect.

  8. #23
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    Firehawk4,

    There were many Tongs in the Boxer Uprising. Our ancestor Hung Gun Biu and his group were from the Hung Gun Wui Jung Yi Tong. During his service with the Hung Gun Boxer Society, he trained his fighters via his kung fu which he referred to it as "Hung Fa Boxing".

    The type of combat training he provided with Hung Fa Boxing was not the system (SNT/CK/BJ - theory, principle, strategy, tactics) format to them. It was strictly the combat survival format.

    Though this was Saan Sau training, it still maintained 2 key elements from core system/DNA: the Ng Ying Sau Concept and the 3 Centerline Concept. These two signatures were maintained in Hung Gun Biu's Saan Sau teachings to them, and are still maintained in our Saan Sau teachings today.

    It wasn't until after 1874, the zenith of the Hung Gun Boxer Society's battles, did HGB return to private life and actually teach in the real sense of teaching the San Sau AND system format privately.

    Today we maintain both Saan Sau and system teachings.
    Last edited by Savi; 04-08-2014 at 03:50 PM.
    World Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kung Fu Association

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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    Zuti, I didn't realize that you weren't in TWC anymore. What is your affiliation these days?
    Mainly Chen Tai Chi and Bajiquan , for some reason these styles helped me a lot to recover after a car accident , although i still can not control completely my right side of the body I can feel things are slowly going better. I still practice Wing Chun with one of the local instructors in here Tainan , and occasionally with one of my wife's distant relatives who is working in Guangazhou but i will not talk about it because TWC people from Serbia stalking me for a long time and caused me a lot of trouble in the past when i talked openly about people i work with .

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric_H View Post
    Hello zuti_car,

    I'm sure as more of our system is shared on video that you as a former TWC guy will be able to see what we are doing differently relatively clearly. It's unfortunate for the people who are genuinely interested in seeing what we are doing that we as an org choose not share more, but we've had a number of instances that I think make us as an organization reluctant to share. A few of them just off the top of my head:

    1) Someone from turkey downloading and using our photos and claiming to be a master of the "HFY Free International Organization"
    2) Another guy claiming a Sifu from LA (who after some basic investigation couldn't be proven to even exist) who supposedly learned from my Sigung
    3) Another character who came to our school, and took our information to write articles on it as if it were his own stuff.
    4) Some other lineages taking and using our bowing, form structure and theory mixed with other styles to manufacture something new.

    When every time you put something out there, somebody takes it as their own, it makes you less likely to want to put things out.
    Don't get me wrong , I do not know whether guys on that video practice HFY or not , what I see in the "techniques", stances , footwork , hand positions are things I have done before . And the video has been titled as HFY . About your reluctance to share I think you are wrong . You cannot prevent the people to do and think whatever they want , what you can do is to be completely clear and open about your work , that way people will have a chance to get information and decide who and what they will trust . Of course , that will not stop people to think the opposite of what you say and it will not stop people trying to capitalize on HFY , but there will be chance , with open and honest approach to have much more people on your side .
    Last edited by zuti car; 04-09-2014 at 04:14 AM.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by zuti car View Post
    You cannot prevent the people to and think whatever they want , what you can do is to be completely clear and open about your work , that way people will have a chance to get information and decide who and what they will trust . Of course , that will not stop people to think the opposite of what you say and it will not stop people trying to capitalize on HFY , but there will be chance , with open and honest approach to have much more people on your side .
    Agreed. The only way you can ever stop someone from stealing is by not teaching at all Any of the HFY students/instructors today could, if they wanted to, leave the organisation and set up on their own and then teach what they've learned. Anyone from another lineage attending a HFY open seminar can take material away from it.

    There will always be people who then teach and don't reveal where they learned their material from. But it's better, IMO, for the HFY people to openly share and let the world know that Master GG is the main source of HFY today, and the authority on the art.

  12. #27
    Regarding video footage from HFY, what I would like to see (to try and improve my own understanding) is something that demos/highlights (say, in Chi Sao), how HFY practitioners utilise their ideas/concepts/methods. E.g. three connecting bridges, the time, space, energy formula, four gates reaction method, etc.

    From the thread about the HFY seminar in Arizona, it was written:

    HFY’s Saam Mo Kiu (红花義天人地三摩橋©) - Three Connecting Bridges philosophy describes to us that in the process of developing structure, there will be variances in one’s presentations of structure. Honing one’s body alignments to be in accordance with the HFY Time Space Energy Formula is progressive in nature (wandering to focus state). Ultimately, HFY Structural Energy is the only instrument specifically designed to work with the HFY Time Space Energy Formula. It is important to realize HFY structure cannot be removed from its spatial constructs without creating more distortions in the process. The HFY Time Space Energy Formula is the representation of this relationship. It is here where we begin to learn and understand how to stick in Chi Sao through HFY Structural Energy (above and beyond the attribute of sensitivity) and use for Sparring, which we learn through intimate knowledge of the HFY Advanced Siu Nim Tao form.

    The purpose of using Four Gates Theory in Chi Sao (the Four Gates Reaction Method (紅花義四門應樁法©)) is to enable the person’s ability to stand his/her ground to meet and neutralize direct-force attacks by using HFY structural energy. This facilitates one's ability to displace any residual energy away from the Centerline (Loi Lau Hoi Sung) and into the gates. As a result, the person can maintain the original position at the onset, obey the boundaries of Time and Space, and capitalize on advantages. The alternative would be to step away from where he/she originally starts to dissipate/redirect what energy may still remain from an attack. However, moving away from one’s original position equates to a loss of any potential advantages that could have been gained otherwise.


    So for me, this is quite complex language (compared to how most WCK guys describe their art and its training), so I wonder if this is a) just describing what others do too, but just using different terminology, or b) what HFY teaches is indeed something quite different to, say, the Leung Ting Wing Tsun that I learn.

    From the short video clip KPM linked to, things didn't look too different to WCK from other lineages - though at first glance things like more like TWC as zuti car noted.

    So it would be great to see some video footage that really highlights the differences if there are differences. Hoping your plans to share work out

  13. #28
    Not sure if this is off topic or not, but maybe some of the HFY guys here would know the answer. I think I remember hearing that Mark Hobbs, a Wing Chun instructor in the UK had visited a HFY school to take a look at the system. Hobbs was a long-term student of Lun Gai in Foshan.

    When Hobbs described Lun Gai's Wing Chun in an interview with Alan Orr (http://en.mkfa.org/articles/mai) he used terminology that I hadn't heard from anyone else who had met and learned from Lun Gai. Hobbs said of the system he was learning:

    ----------------------------------------

    Mark: Next we need a Wing Chun bridge referencing method, for three dimensional placement of our fighting tools, for correct understanding of height and width, to do this we use ( Luk Mun) six gate theory, and ( Chang Dyun Kil Sau) Long-short bridge hands to understand structured depth. This creates an understanding of how to zone our body using an imaginary grid or matrix, so we know instinctively where the points of structure are for our tools, which in turn give us our understanding of ( Ying) shapes.

    Shapes are expressions of ( Jiu Sic) structure so this is about how to understand our structure before trying to influence our opponent's structure - we are still the realm of the "Mass."

    This “Jong Faat” structure method isabout occupying or maintaining space and by aligning your arms to avoid the collapsing or folding of your bridges. This is considered as solid energy ( Gong Lik). This layer is important for the ( Bi Jong) set up, ( Deui Ying) facing theory which leads us to ( Jit Kil) bridge interception.

    Alan: Now you can take the pressure?

    Mark: Yes. However, when an opponent releases power that is more than we can handle then we need to have the ability to absorb. Therefore the concept of absorb and release ( Tun Tao) or the famous Wing Chun saying of ( Loi Lau hoi sun - Lat sau Jik Chung) comes into play. This means to remain and receive the energy, to escort the energy and then thrust your attack when your hand is free. This is the fighting method of the spear; a lot of systems are created from the concept of the spear, Xingyiquan being one of them. This is to swallow the impact and thrust at the centre. This means we have attained spring energy, by understanding how to separate and utilise all the joints and centres of the body.

    The other part of bridge work is ( Sei Lik) redirection or ( Chaam Kil) sinking. You attain this by taking new lines to displace the opponent strength by manipulating his elbow position which allows you to eat up the space to the opponent's centre.

    Alan: What about dissipation of energy?

    Mark: The other way is to ( Fa Lik) dissipate the energy. This method requires what is known as ( Teng Lik) listening or sensitivity. This is considered ( Yuen Lik) soft energy, and ties in with the moment when an opponent tries to move a shape off centre. To hold the shape now requires the use of excessive muscle, and so to try to hold this bridge requires effort which means it is no longer structure, it is strength as there’s no spine or centre alignment for pressure. So if your Structure is broken you need to ( Fa) Dissipate, fold ( Faan Lik), Separate (Fan Lik), Circle ( Huen), Elbow pull (Jarn Lik), Snake (Se Lik) plus lots of other energies. Dissipation ( Fa Lik) is not considered a structure but transitional, therefore it is energetic based.

    Alan: Often it’s thought that if you use structure then you can’t then be mobile. This is incorrect, how do you see movement with structure?

    Mark: Once you attain the above information you can now start to use apply the concepts.

    The information above is all part of (Siu Nim Tao) Wing Chun’s first form which teaches you about body and bridge method, this is why the form is static in terms of footwork. As it allows you to concentrate on structural hand and body positioning and also provide you with transitional energies between the structures, allowing you to be able to start understanding bridge angulations, providing you with the information on how to maintain your bridges while influencing an opponent’s bridge, using a myriad of different ways.

    All the ways we use in a facing position are contained by the space Wing Chun operates in which is a semi- circle in front of you, from shoulder to shoulder. This is then split into a box within the two shoulders, plus two wings from the shoulder line to the side line. When in application with an opponent this information transforms to the three body facings which are front body, angled body left, or angled right side body.

    To make sure that when utilising the angled body tactic we stay within the realms of Wing Chun concept of simultaneous attack and defence we have to align certain parts of our body to that of our opponent's. This information is not exclusive to Wing Chun. All methods of Kung Fu should utilise this understanding as it is a common ( Kil Sau, Chi Sau) tactic. What makes Wing Chun different is that it can only use tools that reflect the concept of efficiency within this space. As Wing Chun employs fewer tools it needs to employ concepts, strategy and tactics to fill up this area instead.

    ----------------------------------------

    Really interesting interview, but (and I mean no disrespect to Lun Gai) this language and terminology for describing LG's Wing Chun doesn't really sound like anything else I've heard or read when hearing other LG students talk about the art they learn. The way Hobbs talks about energy, structure and space, etc... is he using HFY definitions to describe what he learned from LG?

    I should add, I've never met Mark Hobbs but I have a friend who has and he told me that Hobbs was a nice guy, friendly and open with his knowledge and when my friend Chi Sao'd with him, he said Hobbs was really very good.

    So I'm not posting any of this to attack the man, just want to understand better his use of language, concepts etc, and to cross reference this (if possible) with the language and ideas that come from HFY people.

    Last edited by BPWT..; 04-09-2014 at 04:24 AM.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Agreed. The only way you can ever stop someone from stealing is by not teaching at all Any of the HFY students/instructors today could, if they wanted to, leave the organisation and set up on their own and then teach what they've learned. Anyone from another lineage attending a HFY open seminar can take material away from it.

    There will always be people who then teach and don't reveal where they learned their material from. But it's better, IMO, for the HFY people to openly share and let the world know that Master GG is the main source of HFY today, and the authority on the art.
    Who cares if someone steals and doesn't give credit? So what? Some people care so much that they are offended and won't share for fear of this? Really? This attitude makes absolutely no sense to me. No one can steal what is important. That stuff can only be earned through your own hard work.

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    No one can steal what is important. That stuff can only be earned through your own hard work.
    I hear what you're saying, but tell that to Apple when they see Samsung phones

    To be sure, hard work and constant training is what yields results in any martial art - but people can certainly take and incorporate others methods, and those methods are what you train and put hard work into.

    But I don't disagree with you - these days if people teach openly (publicly) they shouldn't be worried about sharing with video, online posts, offering open seminars, etc. If someone really is that protective then they shouldn't be teaching publicly, just train in secret with family (and hope they have no black sheep in the family).

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