Anti-striking

[Faux Newbie]

Some thoughts that came to mind watching the videos:

1) On the striking, maybe adding some more circular strikes (hooks, chops) so that, in practicing the drill, people don't get the tunnel vision of expecting things coming from their front. A good striker will use straight strikes to open up circular strikes, circular strikes to open up for straight, uppercuts to open up for straights. It seems like the straight line punches and uppercuts are well represented, an occasional hook or chop would help pressure test, imo.

2) For the striker, they could also focus on using footwork to get slightly better angles, so that the pressure test for the person doing big hands requires them to read the footwork more.

3) Gloves for the striker would also compress distance (because of the higher willingness to hit), it would be interesting to try this out and see what it is like.

4) It would be really interesting to see how you blend this with dealing with kicks. I can see a couple approaches, but I'm really curious what approach you would take.

These points are NOT critiques of the people doing the drills, more comments on the drills and thoughts that I had regarding them.

A question:

Do you think this approach blended with slipping some strikes would open the opportunity for different throws? I ask because it relates in some ways to things I am working on now, and throws are your thing. I'm finding that when I end up in a tight sort of clinch like what the videos are showing, certain throws come up often, but if I slip a strike certain ways that give me greater access to attacking limbs and higher degree of over extension on the part of an opponent, I find the opportunity for different sorts of throws. Hope my question makes sense!

[wenshu]

2. Use "big fist" to deflect incoming punches.

uppercuts? bodyshots?

[YouKnowWho]

I was wondering if there were other aspects you were planning on working. I'm looking forward to getting a more complete picture. Even aside from the anti-striking angle, this almost seems like an interesting format for working entry for throws against a striker, so that, even if someone was opting to use strikes, they could switch modes to big fist and the double spears in order to take the offensive into throwing range.

Besides "big fist" and "double spears", I'm also working on "hook" (connect my body with my opponent's body ASAP). Many years ago, a good friend of mine said, "If I keep moving back away from you, what can you do to me?" His question had bothered me for quite some time. In the past I used to believe that I can use kick and punch to set up a throw. Now I believe I have to use kick and punch to set up a "clinch". I then use the "clinch" to set up my throw. Both "head lock (all head lock moves can be applied with over hook as well)" and "under hook (all under hook moves can be applied with waist wrap and bear hug as well)" are connect my body with my opponent's body in close distance (arm to neck, or arm to under shoulder). I would need some "hook" on the far distance such as "wrist" and "elbow".

This way, I can cover all the throwing "entering strategy" for

- head lock,
- over hook,
- under hook,
- waist wrap,
- bear hug.

If I just add in "circle running" entering strategy for "single leg", it'll get more complete.

[YouKnowWho]

uppercuts? bodyshots?

Body shots is not included. All wrestler should be able to take some body shot IMO. If you have been thrown down on the ground 200 times daily, body shots should not bother you too much. When your opponent tries to punch at your body, his head will be open up for your head lock.

[YouKnowWho]

Some thoughts that came to mind watching the videos:

1) On the striking, maybe adding some more circular strikes (hooks, chops) so that, in practicing the drill, people don't get the tunnel vision of expecting things coming from their front. A good striker will use straight strikes to open up circular strikes, circular strikes to open up for straight, uppercuts to open up for straights. It seems like the straight line punches and uppercuts are well represented, an occasional hook or chop would help pressure test, imo.

2) For the striker, they could also focus on using footwork to get slightly better angles, so that the pressure test for the person doing big hands requires them to read the footwork more.

3) Gloves for the striker would also compress distance (because of the higher willingness to hit), it would be interesting to try this out and see what it is like.

4) It would be really interesting to see how you blend this with dealing with kicks. I can see a couple approaches, but I'm really curious what approach you would take.

These points are NOT critiques of the people doing the drills, more comments on the drills and thoughts that I had regarding them.

A question:

Do you think this approach blended with slipping some strikes would open the opportunity for different throws? I ask because it relates in some ways to things I am working on now, and throws are your thing. I'm finding that when I end up in a tight sort of clinch like what the videos are showing, certain throws come up often, but if I slip a strike certain ways that give me greater access to attacking limbs and higher degree of over extension on the part of an opponent, I find the opportunity for different sorts of throws. Hope my question makes sense!

Those are good suggestions. IMO, the hook punch (or haymaker) are too easy to get arm wrapped.

It's easier to

- catch a roundhouse kick than to catch a front kick.
- wrap a hook punch than to wrap a jab or cross.

The reason is simple. Both roundhouse kick and hook (or haymaker) are committed and you can predict the incoming path.

[RenDaHai]

Excellent! I always wondered why more people don't use this.

We often call this kind of move 'KaoShou' 'to wear handcuffs' because it is like having your hands shackled together (not to actually fight in handcuffs).

It is more common to use the same strategy but one hand holding the wrist of the other (the golden lock 'JinSuo', also the 7 star position in SongShan). There are two major orientations this can be done with and you can change between them. This transformation is called the Fanzi Quan.


Keeping with this displayed technique it is VERY powerful to strike with. Simply hit the opponent straight in the face with your double fist. It hurts the knuckles only a bit but it is well enough distributed and it really really hurts the opponent when ungloved (Yes, I have been hit with it, it really pushes you back). Also hammering, thumping direct to the face. The great thing is if the opponent is only guarding with one arm you can punch through it with this. Also try switching to horizontal orientation.

If you use the classic 'JinSuo' technique described above there are a lot more changes possible. You can maintain friction and suddenly open your hands (Wusong breaks manicles) forming a VERY powerful strike (Dan Bian - 'To shoulder the whip'). In Shaolin this is the classic 'QiXing - Dan Bian' combination that is the signature of the Song Mountian Shaolin form.


It takes a human about 1/2 a second to make a decision, but only 1/5th to react. If you have to decide 'block left or right' you will never block anything. If you simply make your arms into a shield then you only have to react 'forwards!' rather than attempt a deflection. This method of blocking can actually work very well.

This method of blocking is to use a shield. There are a collection of 'shields' with the arms. Though with all of them, you must have a motive to enter, as they cannot deflect for a long time. If someone attacks the body, simply hit directly to their face with the shield itself, they cannot easily block it with just one hand. Especially as this can be powerful from the shortest range.

[wenshu]

If you have been thrown down on the ground with a rock directly under your liver/spleen/kidneys 200 times daily, body shots should not bother you too much. .

fixed that for you

[Faux Newbie]

Those are good suggestions. IMO, the hook punch (or haymaker) are too easy to get arm wrapped.

It's easier to

- catch a roundhouse kick than to catch a front kick.
- wrap a hook punch than to wrap a jab or cross.

The reason is simple. Both roundhouse kick and hook (or haymaker) are committed and you can predict the incoming path.

I agree, especially on the front kick versus round kick. But, by diversifying what the person is drilling against, even if you use chops for circular attacks instead of hook, the person doing the drill doesn't stay static, assuming high strikes coming straight in.

I agree to some extent with Wenshu, for some people, its important to consider body shots- for example, I'm pretty tall, people are going to go for my body to try to open up my head. If I'm fighting a shorter person, the reverse, I'll go for the head to open up the body. A good targeted strike hits on a smaller surface than a breakfall, so if someone works their power, and gets in close enough, it's sometimes not an issue of whether it is painful, but how much it injures. Also, I can take blows, but I tend to favor making sure I can evade or control them, just in case they're holding a knife of something like that.

[Faux Newbie]

Besides "big fist" and "double spears", I'm also working on "hook" (connect my body with my opponent's body ASAP). Many years ago, a good friend of mine said, "If I keep moving back away from you, what can you do to me?" His question had bothered me for quite some time.

Isn't it funny how one little scenario or statement sticks with you until you have to solve it? Fun puzzles.

In the past I used to believe that I can use kick and punch to set up a throw. Now I believe I have to use kick and punch to set up a "clinch".

Makes sense.

[YouKnowWho]

The big fist is like the Chinese weapon 锏(Jian). It's used to break weapon such as knife or sword. There is no way that any knife or sword can hurt 锏(Jian).

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/5219/jiany.jpg

The main purpose of the "big fist wedged arms" is like the "giant drill machine", no matter what your opponent may do to you, you always use your "drill head" to drill through your opponent's guard.

[Faux Newbie]

The big fist is like the Chinese weapon 锏(Jian). It's used to break weapon such as knife or sword. There is no way that any knife or sword can hurt 锏(Jian).

http://imageshack.com/a/img38/5219/jiany.jpg

The main purpose of the "big fist wedged arms" is like the "giant drill machine", no matter what your opponent may do to you, you always use your "drill head" to drill through your opponent's guard.

I'm not saying that the concept is a problem. What I'm saying is that, if faced with an opponent doing this (big hands, et al), one must use feints and strikes to draw the guard away, and then take advantage of the openings (if one wants to continue striking). So to train this sort of defense, it seems like a good idea to train it against a diversity of techniques, so that it is fluid and does not count on being able to soak up certain blows or have certain responses.

For example, in relation to the hook, you mentioned how the hook is easy enough to wrap up and throw when someone throws it. But, if someone fakes that hook to draw that response, this may break the defense and leave an opening.

My point wasn't that there is a weakness to the method you are talking about, but that, by training against a broad array of techniques with it, I think using it would become more effective. Since the trainee, in using this method in sparring and fighting, would definitely be facing people trying to pick apart this defense by way of adding in circular attacks, feints, draws, and kicks, these could be incorporated into the training.

Even if we think this attack is not our favorite because of its weaknesses, those weaknesses can be used as a lure to cause the person using big hands to break their defense in order to take advantage of the weakness. If the weakness is only bait, then it is strength.

Just my thought. It would be interesting to practice these drills where occasionally, feints were added. Occasionally kicks were added. That way, they get pressure tested, instead of counting on weathering a blow, which sometimes is good, but against some people, may mean weathering a blow from someone really strong at that blow.

The key with 锏 is that it must be in position to do its work. Same with big hands, etc. To beat them, one way is forcing them out of position and striking the opening. Thus, it seems to me that to train expertise in this defense is to train expertise in reading the opponent and being able to know when to wedge, and when not to take the bait, so that the 锏 is always in position, but without ignoring attacks that the defense is not designed to deal with, even if many times these attacks are not highly effective, sometimes they will be. We should choose when to count on iron body, not have no recourse but it.

Again, this is not criticism of the technique, I like the ideas and I'm trying to wrap my head around them and trouble shoot their practice for myself. This relates heavily to ideas of blending the distance from striking to throwing, so it's a very interesting topic to me.

[YouKnowWho]

feints were added. Occasionally kicks were added.

Agree with what you have suggested, I'll add "kicking" and "fake punch" into my Sunday class training tomorrow. May be shot some more clips for discussion.

[Faux Newbie]

Agree with what you have suggested, I'll add "kicking" and "fake punch" into my Sunday class training tomorrow. May be shot some more clips for discussion.

Cool! I was trying to think yesterday how, if I was trying to do the same sort of tactic, I would approach dealing with straight kicks without it affecting the overall goals. Interesting stuff.

[Faux Newbie]

So, I've decided to have some fun with this concept.

I tend to do an hour of shadow boxing in the mornings, I try to incorporate new stuff in that time, and I got thinking about this thread as I was deciding what I wanted to focus on next week. I'm going to mess around with ideas related to this, probably not exactly the same, but nonetheless.

So:

1) One of the things I want to use a lot of is slips, so some focus on that
2) To minimize the effects of feints, I want to train draws to entice certain attacks
3) I probably won't join hands together when doing the big fist, but a similar idea.
4) I don't intend to hold the big fists, but to fluidly adopt and abandon them, so that my draws will look enticing, will draw the right attacks, which I can then wedge and close with.
5) The focus for me will be this drawing, evasion, ending with wedging or deflecting with big hands and entering.

I'll entrain this in shadow boxing, at some point I'll work it with a partner and see how it goes...

[intercept8]

I like the way you presented the Big Fist strategy and finishing with throw. However, I think the Big Fist is too restricted, telegraphs and vulnerable. I agree with most everything Faux Newbie has mentioned. I would not want to be kicked with strong low kicks or punched in the liver. I think clasping your hands would make footwork slower. It would give the opponent a chance to control two hands with one (parry, deflect, trap, slip or side step) and strike with the other. I believe your double spears (separated hands) would be more effective as your bridge or reach to get head control will be longer and less restrictive.

The opponent in your videos is too compliant, to tell how effective the Big Fist is or isn’t. I would like to see an opponent that moves (back, lateral, pivot) and doesn’t leave his arm out to be countered and kicks.

Here is a demonstration of getting head control and throw, against a non-compliant opponent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqBoyekp_ZY @ 3:40. At 4:45 opponent uses straight punches to stop bullrush. Ronda slips, parrys, & reaches to get head control and takes down.

I like this demonstration because it shows the techniques, timing, and distance Ronda has to use, against a resisting opponent, in order to get a successful take down. Sometimes, it’s not easy to get head control with a resisting opponent (moves, circles, punches, kicks). I think self-defense techniques should be pressure tested and drilled in sparring or performed in competition.

Here is more grappling (throws, takedowns) analysis in MMA of Ronda vs Tate:

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/12/3...nter-uchi-mata

http://www.reddit.com/r/judo/comment..._tate_ufc_168/