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Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Mature?? Like your girls name. No it's not can't its don't need to.
    Wow Alan! You're being a real *****. I'm surprised and wouldn't have expected it of you. But its obvious this thread is going nowhere. Honest questions ignored. Now degenerating to taunts and name-calling. Good luck to you and your fighters. Never meant to cause such a hubbub by just stating the obvious. Go figure!

  2. #302
    Okay, so while I was typing JP summed it up maybe a little clearer than I just had.

  3. #303
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    First, I'm not critiquing what Alan or his guys do with this comment - what anyone else does has no bearing on my understanding of wing chun and if it works for them, more power to them

    That said, you bring up a good point - that this is mainly an emergency action found in BJ from a WC perspective. So IMO, this is really a last ditch recovery effort we use mainly because someone got into our space, we lost structure and/or facing and we have no options left, not a WC bai jong ready stance - regardless what type of fighter we are facing. Sure, people can fight from any position they chose. But fighting from a stance where both hands are held in close to the body/chin, you lose a lot of your ability to apply some very key basic wing chun fighting principles.
    First, you have no 2 lines or offence/defense and you lose ability to occupy space on center which is essential to WC's Jeet Kiu ideas or applying WC's gate theories for defense (4-gate) or bridging engagement strategies (6 gate). Also, you're are giving up range and timing which you'll just have to recover. Basically, you're putting yourself in a recovery timeframe right from the start. While you can fight from this stance easily enough, and many arts do - doing so it makes it quite a bit harder to apply WC's engagement & bridging strategies from a wing chun SNT concept/principle perspective.

    I'm not saying someone should just stand around like a 'mo with your hands in a static bai jong ready stance either. But from a wing chun principle perspective, BJ emergency/recovery methods are the last place I want to be, not a position to start from.
    Yes yes yes this is how you think things should work but that doesn't mean they will or that this is how another person should do them.

    Here's the thing just because people have ideas does not make it so. The trouble with the oh you don't want to do this or that because of this or that way of thinking is that in wing chun circles it never involves doing it. I mean rarely do we hear any body saying here is what I really do, here I am fighting and doing what I say. When they do like Orr then they are criticized as that is not wing chun or how things should be done. The critique is just more of here are the reasons I think this or that is better. AS Orr pointed out the critique never seems to be any body showing how they can do it differently and make it work. Yes I know it is a forum but my point is that what is behind or the basis for many of these views. I think the basis is not I am doing it and it is working but in my mind this is how I think things should work.

  4. #304
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    Alan's WC looks like WC that is used/trained VS non-WC fighters.
    I have also noted that, having seen his videos and such, he seems to follow the mantra:
    See it taught, see it fought.
    In other words his guys fight like they train and train like they fight.
    His WC looks the same in training (sparring) as it does in the ring ( typically).

    I don't recall seeing that very much in other WC systems.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    Your tone is pretty insulting. You're implying that we can't explain our own system. I chose not to reply because I didn't feel the need to spoon feed you. You're happy now because LFJ's explanation makes sense to you but only because it fits with your understanding. Ok, I'll bite, where the hands are held in a pre-fight/guard posture is always going to be based on personal preference and on what I need to do in that moment of time.

    If I'm suddenly under a barrage I may feel the need to utilise a covering strategy before being able to extend my bridges/structure into my opponent. The idea of a fixed static guard is nonsensical to me, I will always be moving,enticing and enquiring (these are some of our methods you so kindly pointed out about 100 pages ago). I'm not thinking "better use double prayer hand from Bil jee) I use the mechanics/methods that seem appropriate to me at that point in time. Experience will often dictate my choices here not logic and theory. Don't be so fixated on guard positions, what truly matters is what happens when the hands start flying. We seem to do ok at that point.
    What you are saying is exactly right and also holds rue for western boxing. The problem is that you cannot explain boxing to people who do not box and won't get in the ring. They think it is an intellectual puzzle. I find this whole thing really funny it is like people who don't box arguing with a pro boxer about how to spar.

    You are at the free form stage and they are at the model stage.

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    Yes yes yes this is how you think things should work but that doesn't mean they will or that this is how another person should do them.

    Here's the thing just because people have ideas does not make it so. The trouble with the oh you don't want to do this or that because of this or that way of thinking is that in wing chun circles it never involves doing it. I mean rarely do we hear any body saying here is what I really do, here I am fighting and doing what I say. When they do like Orr then they are criticized as that is not wing chun or how things should be done. The critique is just more of here are the reasons I think this or that is better. AS Orr pointed out the critique never seems to be any body showing how they can do it differently and make it work. Yes I know it is a forum but my point is that what is behind or the basis for many of these views. I think the basis is not I am doing it and it is working but in my mind this is how I think things should work.
    If fighting from a wing chun perspective using wing chun principles, and aiming towards a goal of fighting with maximum efficiency and effectiveness, then that is simple how it's done. Has nothing to do with how I 'think' things should work - I speak from my own understanding of wing chun concept/princple based on my own experience. Of course I don't get this simply from standing around alone in my house in front of a camera theorizing and droning on for hours on end as some others here seem to do - I prove it out during my own personal training sessions each and every week. You assuming otherwise just makes you look like, well, an a55.

    Alan and his guys can operate and interpret wing chun concepts however they want. If they chose to start from a recovery timeframe guard, that's their choice and no skin off my nose. I used to box, and back then I held similar guards as they do now. And my personal experience tells me, that if I want to apply wing chun bia jong & jeet kiu concepts/strategies, that old closed off guard doesn't really support that. End of story.
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 04-24-2014 at 12:20 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    Kieth, by the way, that was a real douchebag move posting what you did on the kung fu forum!
    ??? I took a look over on the Kung-fu forum and saw where Kieth had posted the clips Alan had provided of Josh Kaldani's recent fight and also a clip of a couple of Alan's guys training. I don't see the problem. Although Keith may not have intended this, the response seems positive.
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by dlcox View Post
    Kieth, by the way, that was a real douchebag move posting what you did on the kung fu forum!

    Between you and Hendrik this place has gone downhill. Both of you need to quite pushing your agenda's down everyone's throats. Voice your opinion, leave it at that. I think it fair to say that I speak for many when I say knock off the horsesh!t, enough is enough.
    With all due respect....FXCK YOU DAVE! Go back and read this thread from the beginning. I made a simple comment about not seeing any obvious Wing Chun in the clips posted and end up being told I am "low level" and "stupid" and the "walking dead." You tell me what kind of "horsesh!t" that is!!! I simply asked if the biomechanics I was seeing in a sparring clip that looked amazingly like western boxing were typical of CSL Wing Chun and suddenly I'm "pushing an agenda"? Just what "agenda" might that be? I voiced my opinion and have gotten all kinds of criticism and flak for it.

    Now you are calling me a "douchebag"? I posted Alan's clips in the general forum to see what others would think. I did it because I might very well be wrong and people will accept that those clips represent good Wing Chun. I posted them with a very positive tone just as Alan himself would have. I didn't try and prejudice people towards them in any way. Alan and his guys have nothing to hide. Those are good clips. So just what problem do you see with people other than Wing Chun people viewing them????

    Again, just what "agenda" am I pushing down everyone's throats? And how has Hendrik been making things go downhill? He has been very forthcoming with information lately. You don't have to agree with his information, but at least he is providing what he knows and answering questions.

  9. #309

    Hi folks...

    This is my first time posting here, and I wanted to introduce myself first since this is my first post. I been lurking here reading a lot of the posts on this forum, and decided to join based on wanting to read others experience during their transitions in learning Wing Chun, and I emptied my cup so that I can learn things from the topics posted here. Since I really do not know anyone on these forums, I felt maybe having a unbiased look at this topic, just to keep it plain and simple, in the eyes of a outside reader and observer of these boards as of the last 3 weeks.

    I can see why some feel that watching the original clip feels to some that it doesn't look like Wing Chun. And to some degree just on the surface, you can assume to be right, and not wrong for seeing it that way. I too looked at the clip quite a few times, as this topic has stirred the members of this forum to express different opinions of varying degrees. After reading everyone's thoughts, and watching the videos, I can clearly state what I see, as my opinion may differ from others here.

    At first glance, I truly couldn't see, if I did not know how to look at it with a certain eye, that it was pure Wing Chun from the traditional point of view, regarding stances, footwork, forms, etc. But, as I continued really looking at it, literally going over the footage just a few times, I can actually kinda see the principles being used during the original clip, that allowed the victor to apply pressure to his rival during the match. It actually brought me back to a few years ago, as my father once told me about Wing Chun, and the mind state one should look at Wing Chun with...

    He told me to learn the basics, all the theories, study the forms and train and practice as much as I can, but to never just stick to the things you learn and think that there is all there is to it. Allow yourself to learn yourself thru the art, keep what works for you, and discard what does not apply. Everyone's Wing Chun is different and the reason for that is all about body expression, and the art of expressing it is brought about and shown in many different ways depending on the practitioner, as well as the way they are taught and the way the practitioner sees and thinks what was taught to him, in his or her own interpretations.

    In short, I feel that there is Wing Chun being used in that clip, but I feel that there are other influences too, made to work in the environment (MMA), and if it works, and you are using the very principles of Wing Chun jusxt in your own interpretation without deviating from the original theory and it is applied in a way that works, why would it be any less Wing Chun that one who applies the same moveset, in a traditional manner? I think what matters more is, does this work using the actual orignal theory with minor/major modifications, or not? That to me is the bigger question that needs answering. At the same time, Traditional Wing chun is just That Traditional and we should respect it, but if Wing Chun can evolve, and become more useful in modern applications, why look at it any different than where it comes from?

    A father has a child. The child has his own idea of how his father thinks, but in his perspective there are deviations that mixes into his idea of interpreting what his father knows. Now it may look different, seem different, hell, even feel different, but if the son's ideas are born from the seed his father set, but in his mind, there are things that works better or are more applicable for his use in his modern setting, it's hard to say it is or isn't something, when the original ideas a spawned from such a seed.
    "Timing is achieved through practice."

  10. #310
    This thread has become really... weird.

  11. #311
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    You know exactly what what you were doing, your intentions were clear. You posted those video's hoping that others would agree with you and the guys on the Kung Fu forum seen right through you. Look again at their comments.

    ---If I was trying to get people to agree with me I would have posted the videos with a comment like "do you guys think this is Wing Chun" or "what you guys think of this so-called Wing Chun", etc. I posted those clips truly curious as to what others would say so I posted them in a positive fashion just as Alan would have posted them. Then some individuals that had obviously followed this thread chimed in and kind of "skewed" things a bit. If the thread gets plenty of positive comments I welcome that. So just how in the heck do YOU know what MY intentions were?

    Who the hell are you to tell them that they aren't applying Wing Chun correctly you self righteous pr!ck.

    --Look Dave. I have NEVER told anyone how they should apply their Wing Chun. BPWT and I asked some pretty obvious, direct and honest questions. We have done our best to remain polite and respectful despite many of the responses we have received to the contrary. Why are you getting so emotional over things? Just what is your "agenda" here?


    You and Hendrick get on a subject and spam the boards trying to interject the subject into every conversation forcing your point of view as if others can't have an opinion. Enough already, everyone has heard your point, we all don't have to agree, but to keep arguing is just plain stupid.

    ---Just what have I "spammed" on the boards? Give me ONE example! I'm not tc101 giving the same answer in every post....."you don't train realistically!" YOU have given this whole thing a very bizarre turn! Just what is your "agenda" behind this over-the-top emotional response? What have I ever done to you? (because I note that your wrath is directed at me and not BPWT, even though he is the one that has been doing all the posting on this thread recently)

    ---In the prior 4 pages I posted one time. So just how am I "keeping the argument going?"
    Last edited by KPM; 04-24-2014 at 01:37 PM.

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Wow Alan! You're being a real *****. I'm surprised and wouldn't have expected it of you. But its obvious this thread is going nowhere. Honest questions ignored. Now degenerating to taunts and name-calling. Good luck to you and your fighters. Never meant to cause such a hubbub by just stating the obvious. Go figure!
    The only obvious thing is that you have no clue

  13. #313
    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Alan's WC looks like WC that is used/trained VS non-WC fighters.
    I have also noted that, having seen his videos and such, he seems to follow the mantra:
    See it taught, see it fought.
    In other words his guys fight like they train and train like they fight.
    His WC looks the same in training (sparring) as it does in the ring ( typically).

    I don't recall seeing that very much in other WC systems.
    Thank you. Great post

  14. #314
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    Look at this thread, 22 pages of dribble that should have ended 20 pages ago. Maybe I'm being a bit unfair in singling you out,


    The last time I checked, it takes at least 2 parties to carry out a discussion/argument. How can you single out one side and not the other? Why are you attacking me?


    I don't have an agenda, nothing to prove, I only call it as I see it. When I smell bullsh!t I'm going to point it out.


    You seem to have just as much of an "agenda" as I have. And I call it as I see it as well. If someone doesn't like what I have to say, then that's fine. If someone is going to tell me I'm "low-level" or "stupid" or "you just don't get it" or "you have no clue" without even trying to answer my questions or see my points, then I think I have the right to support my own opinion and take up for myself. So you can just take your own brand of bullsh!t and put it in an appropriate place!



    I'm done with this whole ridiculous conversation.

    You are the one that took it to a whole new level of "ridiculous." But I'm done to. I was done 5 pages ago until you chose to call me out. So I will say once again in parting Dave: FXCK YOU!

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by jhexx View Post
    This is my first time posting here, and I wanted to introduce myself first since this is my first post.d.
    Welcome to the forum jhexx! Thanks for the input. Sorry for the drama. Its not always like this here. I promise!

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