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Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    @LFJ
    Regardless... specifically in the instructional clip from Alan that I linked to above, Alan is showing striking and controlling, close body work, bridge work, playing a Chi Kiu strategy and in the range that requires, etc. Those attributes were not evident in the fight clip.

    A fight won't look like a drill. A drill is a drill. I understand that. But if you train the above skills and say they are used in the way your guys fight... we should see those skills in their fights.
    And a fight won't look like "a Chi Kiu strategy".

  2. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    And a fight won't look like "a Chi Kiu strategy".
    In my opinion, if you say you do Wing Chun then the fight should look like you are trying to employ that strategy. Things might not go as planned, but that's not the issue.

    "Looking good" is also not the issue; if I apply the system but it looks messy, who cares. But you have to apply the system.

    When have you seen a BJJ guy fight and you couldn't determine his art from the watching? Or a Muay Thai guy?

  3. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    In my opinion, if you say you do Wing Chun then the fight should look like you are trying to employ that strategy.
    "Wing Chun" is not a singular strategy. I'd only recognize LTWT as Wing Tsun because I'm familiar with what it looks like. But from the perspective of WSLVT, it would be unrecognizable to me as the same strategy. Because it's not.

    Now we have a case with a system of Wing Chun which uses a strategy in the ring that you aren't familiar with. So you can't recognize it. Doesn't mean it isn't in fact Wing Chun strategy.

    When have you seen a BJJ guy fight and you couldn't determine his art from the watching? Or a Muay Thai guy?
    You obviously aren't familiar with how the art of CSLWC is applied. So of course you can't determine it. You're looking for the wrong indicators. You can watch Alan's clips discussing drills and application, but it can't be shown in a clip exactly what it'll look like in the heat of unchoreographed battle. Plus if all that is needed to finish the fight is that "reeling punch" they use, then you won't see all the things discussed in his clips. Doesn't mean the guy didn't apply their orthodox Wing Chun. You just don't understand what you're watching. Maybe if you went to train with them you'd get it.

  4. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    "Wing Chun" is not a singular strategy. I'd only recognize LTWT as Wing Tsun because I'm familiar with what it looks like. But from the perspective of WSLVT, it would be unrecognizable to me as the same strategy. Because it's not.
    That true, but it doesn't really contradict what I am saying. For sure, WSL WCK has differences to LTWT. If, for the sake of discussion, you said that the WSL method doesn't look to bridge and control from the bridge, for example, and you show me WSL WCK training that indeed doesn't do this... and then you show me a WSL guy fighting and he does what the training showed, and it indeed doesn't include the things you said it wouldn't (bridging and controlling), then great.

    While our methods might be different, I would concede that you fight the way you train. The only difference is that your WCK method and/or strategy might be a little different to mine. No big deal.

    But that isn't the case with Alan's training clips and the fight clip, IMO.

    Here's some quotes taken from the first 4 minutes of the training clip we've been discussing. Again, I have no problem with this clip - I actually like it. Pretty much everything Alan says fits in what I have been learning. I see many similarities, and I also think it fits in with what others (e.g. Hawkins Cheung) have been saying too. And to be clear, I say again that Alan looks both knowledgeable and to be a good teacher - hands on and able to show what he's saying.

    In the clip, everything Alan shows works from a bridge, and it's easy to understand why when you see that the focus is on control.

    -------------

    “Wing Chun is a short bridge system [Alan then indicates elbow to the wrist - typical Kiu Sau definition]. When he comes in, I want to get into a short bridge position. I’m getting my body in close to strike. The short bridge position is where you have your inch power and where you’re making it hard for him to hit you back.”

    “The idea of the skill in Wing Chun is to make it so he can’t hit me. Some people will angle out and punch, but to me it puts you back into a striking range, where he has full power. I really want to get as close as I can and disrupt his center [Alan shows this by getting body-to-body, and pressing the guy’s shoulder].”

    “Chi Sau should help you progress to take you from what you’re training to what you’re trying to achieve. What I want to achieve is to strike him and get in to take his balance. I want to eat the space up and get in close.”

    [Alan controls the guys arm – bridge – and then says] “That’s my control point, if he tries to punch here, I can control his balance by controlling his spine, through his arm.”

    “The key thing is not about striking [in relation to the arm control he’s showing], the key thing is that when he goes to strike me, he can’t. I’ve eaten his space up and controlled his horse.”

    "For us, the short bridge training is the key to Wing Chun. If we’re going to play out here and do Chi Sau here [shows lap da, etc, from too far out], then you’re not doing anything. A fighter is going to have their hands up and then strike at you [steps in and unloads punches]. Learning Chi Sau from that range [referring to being too far away from the opponent] is not going to give you anything [in relation to the person coming at you with boxing]. I want to be able to control the position [he shows this by bridging] and then get in tight and strike.”

    Alan then talks about feeling comfortable at the correct position, and shows it not from Poon Sau this time, but with the other guy just throwing a punch. Alan deals with this by stepping in and bridging with that incoming punch, and then using the closer range coupled with the bridge control to take the other guy’s balance.

    “Chi Sau should always be trying to progress, as opposed to where it’s going as a drill, it’s fighting.” [Alan is not meaning, I think, that Chi Sau is fighting, but that what you learn in Chi Sau – what it trains, and thus the things he's been showing us – is what you should focus on with the end goal in mind: the fight].

    So what should you focus on with the end goal in mind? From the instructional clip I've highlighted above (bolded) the attributes. These include bridging and bridge control (Kiu Sau work), eating up space and getting in close (IMO, something tied in with Chi Kiu and Kiu Sau), affecting the other person's structure and positioning (to prevent them from being able to hit you back).

    -------------

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Now we have a case with a system of Wing Chun which uses a strategy in the ring that you aren't familiar with. So you can't recognize it. Doesn't mean it isn't in fact Wing Chun strategy.
    Yes, if a Wing Chun strategy is used that I am not familiar with, it doesn't mean it is not Wing Chun. I agree. My point is that from the training clip and the quotes I just showed, the strategy shown there is not the same as the strategy used in the fight. Yet Alan's indicating that the skills you get from the drills and training he shows, is indeed what you should use in a fight.


    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    You're looking for the wrong indicators.
    The indicators I'm looking for are the ones Alan has shown us

    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Maybe if you went to train with them you'd get it.
    Yes, maybe. That said, I already have no problem with their training - it isn't completely alien to my own.

    But you and I had a similar disagreement over the Kevin Gledhill/Shawn Obasi clip. Kevin spoke about the training he does, but then didn't apply that training's attributes in their exchange, and that wasn't an actual fight with the intensity Josh faced.

    If you watch Alan's training clip and then fight clip, and you see the same attributes being used, then okay - let's just say you are seeing something I am not.
    Last edited by BPWT..; 04-22-2014 at 02:48 AM.

  5. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    You know if you nor anyone else can not post a single clip of wing chun in action looking as you say it should but all you can do is say what is isn't...then maybe there's either something wrong with the art or with how you see it?

    I take it you mean in a kickboxing or MMA ring/environment? Then what you said would apply to a lot of martial arts...like....Hung Gar, Hsing I, Ba Gua, Classical Jiu Jitsu, Classical Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Southern Mantis, etc.
    I mean in any environment, vale tudo with out gloves, MMA with gloves, steet fights, roof top fights etc
    The difference between wing chun and say hung gar or southern mantis is that wing chun is by far the largest chinese martial art out there, practised in nearly every city in the uk for example, heck its in nearly every town, the number of hung gar and bak mei sifu I know within a 50 mile radius of me is 1, the number of wing chun sifu within a 15 mile radius is something like 10, so the odds of finding at least one good clip must me much better than with a minority art like hung gar, yet we cant find a single one, although having said that in the southern forum we have a poster who does hung gar who competed in the early ufcs, we also have guys who post sparring clips. Southern mantis posters have put up clips of themselves sparring full contact as well…..

    We also have guys competing in MMA who have a background in karate, TKD and even classical JJ, yes they cross train, but occasionally there arts come through in the cage, and all those arts have their OWN full contact competitions, TKD has Olympic fighting, (no matter what we think of it) karate has several different full contact events they compete in, classical JJ also has sport comps they compete in, and when they compete they look exactly how they train…wing chun…. well where does it compete and actually look like wing chun?

  6. #171
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    @BPWT

    Don't forget this part:

    You can watch Alan's clips discussing drills and application, but it can't be shown in a clip exactly what it'll look like in the heat of unchoreographed battle. Plus if all that is needed to finish the fight is that "reeling punch" they use, then you won't see all the things discussed in his clips.
    It seems they don't try to apply all those methods if there isn't a need for it. They don't go out of their way to fight in a certain manner. They do what needs to be done and what can be done in the given situation. But what was applied in this fight was still their orthodox Wing Chun.

    Alan said they've had 100's of fights. So maybe he can post a video that shows the things he describes in the cage.

  7. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    @BPWT. Don't forget this part:

    "You can watch Alan's clips discussing drills and application, but it can't be shown in a clip exactly what it'll look like in the heat of unchoreographed battle. Plus if all that is needed to finish the fight is that "reeling punch" they use, then you won't see all the things discussed in his clips."

    It seems they don't try to apply all those methods if there isn't a need for it. They don't go out of their way to fight in a certain manner. They do what needs to be done and what can be done in the given situation. But what was applied in this fight was still their orthodox Wing Chun.
    I agree, things will look messier - much messier, and sometimes just won't have the desired result, despite the trying. I'm not expecting to see picture-perfect application. But I think we should see the attributes present, at least attempted, when needed (the things I highlighted in my previous post).

    And sure, if all that's needed to win the fight is one good strike, then I don't expect to see them knock the other guy out and then try to establish some bridge contact with him as he's sprawled out on the floor . But the fight wasn't ended with the first punch thrown.

    But it doesn't matter - no need for us to continue this - we see things differently, is all. I have nothing against Alan Orr or his fighters (Alan looks much better than I am, and his fighters look fit, strong and dedicated). Everyone's having fun.

    Ps. They just aren't using Wing Chun! (kidding!!!!! :-D)

  8. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Perhaps "looking like good WC/WT/VT" is not high on the priority list in a fight? Or self defense scenario?

    "Sifu, I got mugged tonight." "Well, did your self defense look like good WCK?"
    That is not the point! Look, if you found yourself in a "real" fight, would you expect to just drop all your years of WCK training and resort to using a boxer's stance with jabs and crosses? Wouldn't you expect your "natural second nature" responses to reflect all the hours and hours you have spent training WCK? If all that goes out the window under pressure and you end up looking like sloppy kickboxing in a real fight, then you might as well just be studying kickboxing!

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Well, kind of. None of the dissenters has ever been in a cage match, pretty sure. And most don't spar like they are going to have a cage match. So that's the main difference - lack of experience there.
    Well, kind of. The "difference" you are talking about is the difference between the way most WCK people train and actually training for MMA. My point has been that when you are doing a lot of MMA training then your WCK is naturally going to adapt to the MMA environment and start looking like anyone else's MMA. So at what point can you still call it WCK and not just "MMA" if it adapts to the point that it no longer looks like identifiable WCK?

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I can't answer for anyone else who spars, but I know that myself and the guys I train with have no desire to record and upload it to youtube. We get the feedback we need in the act itself. And like I said, in my case I'm happy to get my ass handed to me if it means that bit by bit, I slowly make the progress I want, in the way that I want.

    If I recorded that and posted it, what response would it get? More than likely people would say that yes, they could see, sometimes, that I was able to use Wing Tsun a little, but that by and large the Muay Thai guy beat me from here to Sunday. The only way to valid things in the eyes of others, like yourself, would be for me to regularly post clips to show the slow improvement over time. And they are slow improvements. And I don't spar hard all the time. Probably I should do so more - but it's all about goals. And I don't really feel the need to go to the effort of documenting it.

    As you've probably guessed, I have no desire to enter a competition - of any description. I'm not training with the goal of entering, for example, a MMA event. If I wanted to, I fully admit I'd get faster results training, say, boxing and BJJ, or heading to a MMA gym. But that's not what I want to learn, and my goal is not to step into a ring/cage.



    Yes, maybe you're right. But IMO, I don't think so. I've never seen any Chinese internal arts used effectively in the ring either. But years ago I met Alex Kozma (who trains Xingyi, Bagua and Taiji), and his skill level was very, very high. His speed and power were scary, as was his ability to use it to just rip right through you. I've never seen him compete. Not his focus either. Does that mean he's no good? Does it mean those arts have something wrong with them?

    In your book, maybe the answer is yes - in my book, no.

    At the end of the day it makes no difference to how you or I train. We do what we want to do. If people look at the clip of Alan's guy getting a good, well deserved win, and agree that the fighter was clearly using the Wing Chun seen in Alan's training/teaching clips... fair enough, I guess. I don't see it, but that's that.
    Iim not on about you specifically posting a clip, although lets be honest if you feel that strongly about something that you are still posting on this thread after 12 pages a video might help clarify things lol
    But im talking about the whole of wing chun in general, wing chun sifu the world over are happy to post clips of forms, applications and waffle on about endless theories but not one of them will post a clip of what wing chun looks like in fighting by actually sparring another style or fighting in an open competition …..and when a sifu with close to 30 years of wing chun training does this and has his students actually compete he is told it doesn’t look like wing chun…..doesn’t anyone else see the funny side of this?

    As I said above to keith I wouldn’t expect many hung gar, or southern mantis sparring clips because they arts are a minority art in the west, and several like southern mantis are closed door and secretive…yet there are clips out there of these arts sparring and even competing if you look hard enough…..but wing chun, …I mean come on its wing chun the leading TCMA in the west and the most commercialised and wide spread Chinese art form there is, every sifu and his brother is happy to post clips of them and their students training forms, chi sau, doing applications but none of them want to film a sparring session, what secrets do they think it will give away that they haven’t already shown?

  11. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    That is not the point! Look, if you found yourself in a "real" fight, would you expect to just drop all your years of WCK training and resort to using a boxer's stance with jabs and crosses? Wouldn't you expect your "natural second nature" responses to reflect all the hours and hours you have spent training WCK? If all that goes out the window under pressure and you end up looking like sloppy kickboxing in a real fight, then you might as well just be studying kickboxing!
    well since no one can post a clip of a wing chun student under such pressure actually looking like how people say wing chun should look (in the cage, on the street or even in class), then maybe you have a good idea

  12. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    He already explained they don't use drills in fighting, then showed video of their sparring which is the next level of training and looks like how they fight. So why would you still look for drills in their fights?

    Thanks LFJ and also the others that can understand the the difference between training and application.

    I think I have wasted enough time saying the same answers on this post and every other post I feel I need to correct. I say correct as people with no understanding I what I am doing are telling what I am and am not doing. Funny but it seems to be the case.

    So I will say one more time - We train CSL Wing Chun and that's what we use for the Gym for the street for all our combat sports. Clear I hope!

    You may not see what we do that is fine. Kung Fu has Obvious Skill and Hidden Skill.

    Obvious are big movements or movements that are easy to see - applications and drills

    Hidden Skills are internal movements of weight control, pressure, timing, and many other things.

    If very clear that people with deeper layers of skill will be more aware of Hidden skills and people with less understand will look for the more Obvious skills - this is why people with lower levels always what to see a drill or basic training application work a fight. Its a lack of the understand in the levels of the system that brings these questions about.

    Bridging lol Yes I show on my clips bridging training in Chi Sao and how it teaching one to control the bridge. Now a 5 min clip is not the limit of my teaching - I hope. I am showing one small detail in one small area. There is so much more to understand to learn.

    You do not need contact to have bridge control at high levels of application.

    Your fist connects that becomes a bridge.

    And many more ...

    Josh loaded his weight with perfect timing and beat the opponents strike, connect his fist making bridge contact before his opponent. You can even see Josh's weight moving forward as he lands the punch. He is not reaching a punch as in boxing. He is pressing his stand and loading the punch. That's why we knock people out. Correct WING CHUN power in the CSL system.

    I will post a New clip this week on long bridging and also I elbow positioning in real combat when facing a trained or ready opponent. Which is very different that dealing with a untrained attack.

    Also a lot of talk but no body answered my question -

    Do you think your Wing Chun would stand up when facing Josh? Do you think you would even hold your own?

    Would be interesting to hear. Also maybe people need to start posting examples of what they talk about - them showing - what would be Wing Chun. As its easy to talk but often when you see what people are doing it shows more that words can say.

  13. #178
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    Lets look at this in simple terms:
    Alan teaches His version of WC, called Chu Sau Lei, to his fighters.
    His fighters have proven to be effective in full contact, limited rules fighting VS other trained fighters.
    That means that Alan's version of WC is clearly effective in fighting against a trained fighter in a limited rules environment.

    What other systems of WC can lay claim to that?
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  14. #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Also a lot of talk but no body answered my question - Do you think your Wing Chun would stand up when facing Josh? Do you think you would even hold your own?
    Josh looks better conditioned than I am, he looks stronger too - and he trains for MMA fights, which I don't (so surely he also has a ground game - BJJ - which I don't have). So I am sure I would seriously struggle against someone like that. No question, he would kick my arse. Of course, so too would many other MMA guys who don't study Wing Chun. I would probably also find myself in deep sh!t if I faced off against a trainee sumo wrestler.

    I'm not sure how that makes Josh's fight an example of him using the Wing Chun in your other clips. Weird logic, IMO. Or is the suggestion that because I don't enter MMA events, I shouldn't comment on one?

    Playing Devil's Advocate... how would Robert Chu do if he stepped into the ring with one of your top fighters?

  15. #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    ... and when a sifu with close to 30 years of wing chun training does this and has his students actually compete he is told it doesn’t look like wing chun… doesn’t anyone else see the funny side of this?
    I think that if people watch a clip and many comment that if they hadn't been told it was Wing Chun, they wouldn't have known it was... and then those people don't comment about that on a Wing Chun forum, that would funny/strange.

    I'm not looking to insult Alan - I've said numerous times that I like the teachings he puts up on Youtube, and I appreciate that he does it - but I can't help the fact that I don't see what he says I should see (and I'm not the only one saying this).

    Ho-Hum!

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