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Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #241
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    @BPWT

    To answer your question simply, we (CSLWC & WSLVT) share the same or very similar basic concepts, but have different expressions in application. What I've seen from Alan explaining those things, e.g. elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc., are all ideas shared in WSLVT. I suspect you have a very different definition of these in LTWT.
    So can you explain those three bolded bits of text above from a WSLVT perspective?

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    So can you explain those three bolded bits of text above from a WSLVT perspective?
    No. As I just told you, while we share the same basic concepts we have different expressions in application, yet any good WSLVT practitioner who watches Alan's explanations should be able to know exactly what he's talking about and how it is expressed in our system. I suggest you get to know more about the basics of his system before commenting on and discussing it's application.

  3. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    @BPWT & KPM,

    Barring firsthand experience, Alan does have several DVDs detailing their system. Perhaps seeing them will help you understand what they're doing and how it is Wing Chun. It'd probably open your eyes quite a bit and help improve your game if you took some of the ideas on board.

    Man, you really do need to go back and do some closer reading LFJ!

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    No.
    Okay. (Edit: would you say, at least, that when you spar it also looks like the method seen in Alan's light sparring clip - specifically the things I mentioned in bold?)

    Chris, can you help explain those points I highlighted?
    Last edited by BPWT..; 04-24-2014 at 03:46 AM.

  5. #245
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    @BPWT

    To answer your question simply, we (CSLWC & WSLVT) share the same or very similar basic concepts, but have different expressions in application. What I've seen from Alan explaining those things, e.g. elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc., are all ideas shared in WSLVT. I suspect you have a very different definition of these in LTWT.
    Oh I agree! What I've seen from Alan explaining things like elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc. makes perfect sense and are all ideas that I share as well. In fact, I would be willing to bet that what I have trained has more in common with CSL WCK than your WSLVT has with CSL WCK. And my comment in my previous post was due to the fact that I have already stated on this thread that I have all of Alan's DVDs, have watched them several times and have learned from them. In fact, I remember one of the DVDs explaining how the more upright Wing Chun stance is superior to a boxer's stance. Yet in both clips posted we don't see that upright Wing Chun stance. We see an angled forward, chin tucked, hands by the face boxing stance. We've just been asking "why is that?"

  6. #246
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Okay.

    Chris, can you help explain them?
    I don't believe any further explanation is necessary. Clips explaining the rationale behind the reeling punch and the way we see bridging have been supplied. My teacher has explained the logic behind how our wing chun works. The offer for hands on explanation has been made and you have been invited to post a clip of your method in application to show us how we should be using/expressing the art under pressure, which you declined to do. You seem to have a problem with our expression of the art because it doesn't fit your paradigm and no amount of forum tennis is going to change that.

  7. #247
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Alan already explained how what they do differs from Western Boxing. They use WC elbow, WC fist position, WC weight control, WC body structure, etc.. .
    Yet it looks more like western boxing than it looks like Wing Chun. But it is not Wing Chun "adapted" to a boxing scenario/format. I guess that's what BPWT and I are having a problem with. Again, if Alan had said "this is CSL chinese boxing based upon our CSL Wing Chun" I would not be having this mental problem. But he denied that. He said "this IS Wing Chun" not "adapted" in any way. To me, that just seems to fly in the face of common sense for all of the biomechanical reasons that BPWT and I have pointed out from that sparring clip. But maybe I'm just weird that way. To each his own! He can call it anything he wants. But as I predicted before, BPWT and I won't be the only ones that will be questioning that terminology as time goes on. And no need to call us stupid or low-level for pointing out the obvious.
    Last edited by KPM; 04-24-2014 at 04:04 AM.

  8. #248
    Chris, that is just evasion. There has been no real explanation at all. You can't simply say, "It is a Wing Chun body method."

    How is it?

    You can explain what I highlighted in bold, or you can't.

  9. #249
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Okay. (Edit: would you say, at least, that when you spar it also looks like the method seen in Alan's light sparring clip - specifically the things I mentioned in bold?)
    How many times do you want me to say we have different expressions in the application of our systems?

  10. #250
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Chris, that is just evasion. There has been no real explanation at all. You can't simply say, "It is a Wing Chun body method."

    How is it?

    You can explain what I highlighted in bold, or you can't.
    What sort of explanation would satisfy you? Apparently not something that sounds like CSL Wing Chun...

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    How many times do you want me to say we have different expressions in the application of our systems?
    Sorry, I just wanted to be absolutely clear. I understand this to mean that you can't explain what you see in that light sparring clip because your WSLVT doesn't do it that way either, and presumably you too can't see how this would have come from YKS, Hawkins Cheung and Gulao Wing Chun (as no one else from those Wing Chun families seems to have those different methods).

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    What sort of explanation would satisfy you? Apparently not something that sounds like CSL Wing Chun...
    Well, firstly... I would like to understand how those things fit into their system. Plain and simple. Why would they cover and take hits to the hands/gloves? Why would they lean forward with their head down in this way? Why would they lunge forward and strike, with weight forward and often have body going one way and the strike the other? How does that fit into their system? (I ask as I have seen nothing like this from any other Wing Chun lineage)

    Secondly, if they can explain why they do it (even though Alan shows very different and contradictory things in his other videos - as KPM just referenced), can they explain where this comes from: Yuen Kay San, Hawkins Cheung or the Gulao Wing Chun lineage?

    Saying "it comes from CSL Wing Chun" is not very informative, as CSL Wing Chun came from Robert Chu who studied the YKS, HC and Gulao methods.

    This would be a great start to being clearer.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    I don't believe any further explanation is necessary. Clips explaining the rationale behind the reeling punch and the way we see bridging have been supplied. My teacher has explained the logic behind how our wing chun works. The offer for hands on explanation has been made and you have been invited to post a clip of your method in application to show us how we should be using/expressing the art under pressure, which you declined to do. You seem to have a problem with our expression of the art because it doesn't fit your paradigm and no amount of forum tennis is going to change that.
    That is exactly right.

    I go on an Easter holiday and come back to see this still going on.

    Part of the problem here is some people think there is only one right way which of course is their way to use wing chun and if you are not doing things like that you are violating principles are not doing wing chun. These people often confuse the training with application.

    Another part of the problem is most people in wing chun do not look at wing chun as a skill. It's what you can do not how you think things should be that matters. Many people look at it backwards that wing chun is in the concepts. The important thing is can YOU let me stress this YOU YOU YOU YOU make what you do work and at what level YOU can make it work that matters not how you think things should work or what your ideas are. Your so called understanding and knowledge doesn't mean anything if you cannot put it to work. The Orr team makes what they do work and at a level very very few in wing chun can equal.

    What many of the comments are basically come down to I do not box but think I understand boxing and do not think how you box is right since it does't match my understanding. Their argument is well I may not be able to last 20 seconds sparring with you but you are doing it wrong and let me correct you.

  14. #254
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Sorry, I just wanted to be absolutely clear. I understand this to mean that you can't explain what you see in that light sparring clip because your WSLVT doesn't do it that way either,
    I don't think we should try explain each other's systems based on our own. The CSLWC guys have been explaining theirs in multiple ways. So I have no place or reason to try to explain it to you.

    and presumably you too can't see how this would have come from YKS, Hawkins Cheung and Gulao Wing Chun (as no one else from those Wing Chun families seems to have those different methods).
    I haven't studied those styles.

  15. #255
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    The Orr team makes what they do work and at a level very very few in wing chun can equal.
    No one disputes that. Alan's guys win fights. We all congratulated the fighter for his win.

    The question is not 'are they good?', the question is 'what do they use?'

    Their art comes from Robert Chu, who studied Yuen Kay San, Hawkins Cheung and Gulao Wing Chun. I am asking how their methods come from those lines - because the clip of Alan's fighters doing light sparring was... well... see the last few pages.

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