Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[LFJ]

@BPWT

What I'm suggesting is that "Wing Chun" is not singular and shouldn't be spoken about in such a general manner as to say what "it" is or isn't or should be. Qualifying such a statement with "IMO" doesn't change the fact that it's a generalization about very different systems (that of course share similarities, given the common ancestry) from the POV of your own lineage.

It's basically saying; "LTWT should be done this way and I don't see that in your fight". Well, of course not. Because they train the CSL Wing Chun system. Hopefully you can see how pointless it is to make such statements rather than to try to understand CSLWC, particularly where it differs.

[BPWT..]

I see what your saying, LFJ, but I think we all use the words Wing Chun in a generic sense. For ease of use. Maybe we shouldn't, as approaches do differ.

But approaching the topic with the goal of understanding Alan's system from my understanding of a different WCK line, I would ask the following question:

Why does CSL WCK train Kiu Sau/Chi Kiu methods, but utilizes only Lei Kiu methods in application? (or was this just the case in this particular fight?)

[chris bougeard]

@BPWT

"Of course, there might be times when you really don't need to - you hit the guy, knock him out, and the fight is over - no more required. But if you start issuing punches without the control (here I mean the control seen in Alan's other videos) then the fighter runs a far greater risk of being caught by the opponent's unchecked response."

You sound like a seasoned fighter who has a lot of experience of working against un-coperative opponents who are trying to tear your head off. Can you show us any clips of you personally "controlling and hitting" an opponent under these circumstances?
Perhaps after viewing these clips we will be enlightened as to
why our "easier" striking and not sticking method isn't the real Wing Chun you espouse.

And please stop pointing out that our guys don't look like they do when you have viewed our drill clips. I think we have already established that we don't fight people with drills.

IME actively trying to bridge/stick to someone not playing the Wc game has resulted in me eating a lot of punches...

[KPM]

I try to keep an open mind. Honestly I do! I've studied several different martial arts through the years. But I can be wrong, and I'm willing to change my opinion and admit that I was wrong. Alan, I understand what you are saying. I have every one of your videos and have watched them several times each and have learned from them. They are great! So I just went back and watched the original video clip you posted. I'm sorry, but I just don't see it. Josh did a great job. But I invite anyone to just watch his movement in the first 45 seconds or so of that clip. Look at his stance: feet wide, body leaned slight forward, chin tucked and head angled forward, hands up in front of the face with the elbows out. In short...Josh is in what has become a pretty standard "MMA ready position" used by boxers and Muay Thai guys alike. How can anyone call this a Wing Chun stance or position? When he punches he tends to duck his head and swing his shoulders just like any MMA fighter does. Is that Wing Chun? When he closed with his opponent we didn't see any of the structure breaking and controlling things Alan talks about, we see them go straight to a clinch. I really didn't see anything that Alan teaches on his videos. Again this is fighting and not drilling or training, but shouldn't something recognizable show up? This is a very typical MMA bout....MMA style boxing going to a clinch and takedown and submission wrestling on the ground. The punch that wins the fight looks exactly like a punch most MMA fighters throw. So tell me what is distinctive here that separates Josh out and says that he is more than just a great MMA fighter, and that he is actually doing Wing Chun? I know, I know you are going to say I don't understand and I just can't see it. What I see is good MMA. So tell me how your Wing Chun HASN'T been "adapted" for MMA?


BPWT wrote:
I agree that WCK is not limited to being just a "close range style", but that (close range/close body) is its emphasis. If you have Kiu Sau methods/key words, and you say that Wing Chun is a close range style, then I would expect to see a close range body method that involves Kiu Sau when your guys fight. I don't see it in that particular fight.

Like I said, all I see at the stand up, striking stage, is Lei Kiu. Your fighter's emphasis was, IMO, on using only what I consider to be a method Wing Chun does not place emphasis on.

I agree. It sounds like what you are calling Lei Kiu is essentially boxing range. Wing Chun is "Chinese boxing", but the traditional systems were designed to function the best a range closer in than the "arms extended" boxing range. We just don't see that often in MMA bouts or any sparring bouts really. I think it becomes much more important in self-defense situations on the street. That's why I agree with Glenn's assessment of "traditional" Wing Chun as more of an "ambush" system and not a bouting system. When you put gloves on a lot of the close in fighting seems to just go away.


I accept there are different approaches. And I wouldn't outright say that Alan and his people are "not doing it right." Their training is right for them if they think it is right for them. All I would say (again! ) is that I see lots of things in their training that fit with the approach I learn, but then when I see them fighting I don't see them using much of that. Why train bridge work and controlling - via the drills they have shown - if you don't use bridge work and control via the bridge, in a fight? Why have Kiu Sau methods in your system if you don't use them?

Again, I agree. Alan is free to do whatever he likes and I wish him and his students the best of luck! I would love to see one of them fighting in the UFC some day. But if that happens, you won't find Joe Rogan eating his words about Wing Chun. Rather you'll hear Joe Rogan telling everyone how these Wing Chun guys are full of it and just doing the same MMA that everyone else is doing.
.

But fair enough - maybe we all just see things differently and we should let it stay that way. To each his own.

Yep! I agree. I'll shut up now. Alan may not have liked what I have said, but that's just the reality of it. Non-Wing Chun people are not going to recognize this clip as Wing Chun. Calling it "straight up" Wing Chun in the tag line is just going to confuse people. That's the reality, like it or not.

[kung fu fighter]

It sounds like what you are calling Lei Kiu is essentially boxing range.

Lei Kiu means fighting without bridge contact, it can be applied in close range fighting. It is a YKSWC term.

[Wayfaring]

@BPWT
And please stop pointing out that our guys don't look like they do when you have viewed our drill clips. I think we have already established that we don't fight people with drills.

IME actively trying to bridge/stick to someone not playing the Wc game has resulted in me eating a lot of punches...

When I see people not understanding the difference in a live chaos scenario in a ring fight and holding form in drills, it simply shows me they probably do not and have not worked with a higher level of contact.

Someone was lecturing me on not saying you guys CSLWCK is modified for MMA. Whatever. If you are going to get into a ring/cage and fight under certain rules, then of course you are adapting your core art to fit the rules you are fighting under. Does that mean "it is not WCK?" Of course not, that's ridiculous. Does it mean you "heavily" adapt the art to fit the ring? Actually, IMO you guys methods probably need LESS adaptation to fit MMA rules than many other families' arts. Most of the adaptation would be adding in a ground game.

And ABSOLUTELY, trying to enact a strategy of bridging or sticking to someone while they are not playing chi sau will get you punched in the grill. And IMO that's a bad habit that develops out of compliantly going to yjkym square stance and sticking both arms out to begin chi sau. Along with not free sparring (from "lei kiu" - you learn a new term everyday).

[LFJ]

IME actively trying to bridge/stick to someone not playing the Wc game has resulted in me eating a lot of punches...

Yup. I've not seen this "Chi Kiu" idea successfully done in the real. It's not part of my VT either.

That's probably why of the other lineages out there, CSLWC is the only one I practically agree on everything with. Very practical because it's not based on theory alone. Everything works in theory.

[BPWT..]

@BPWT. You sound like a seasoned fighter who has a lot of experience of working against un-coperative opponents who are trying to tear your head off. Can you show us any clips of you personally "controlling and hitting" an opponent under these circumstances?

Hi Chris,

No, just like you I also don't compete in MMA competitions. I do of course train against uncooperative opponents, with varying degrees of resistance - some light (no protection used) and some harder (gum shields, gloves and box in place). The training is always to try and control and hit - as that's the system (the system of WCK that I study). We don't record, so no - I don't have video to share with you.

Perhaps after viewing these clips we will be enlightened as to why our "easier" striking and not sticking method isn't the real Wing Chun you espouse.

Regarding 'easier striking', this is just fact, IMO. It is easier to learn to fight with Muay Thai, for example, that it is to fight with, say, Taijiquan.

IME actively trying to bridge/stick to someone not playing the Wc game has resulted in me eating a lot of punches...

I take it this means that you have tried applying the bridging methods of CSL WCK to uncooperative training partners but it didn't work, so now you don't do this and instead use Lei Kiu methods instead?

And please stop pointing out that our guys don't look like they do when you have viewed our drill clips. I think we have already established that we don't fight people with drills.

I understand you don't fight people with drills 'as is'. :roll eyes: I already said as much. But I am talking about the nature of the drills - Kiu Sau drills give bridging attributes, it is what they were designed for. Why train them if you don't use them?

Maybe you are in a good position to answer the question I posed a few posts back:

Why does CSL WCK train Kiu Sau/Chi Kiu methods, but utilizes only Lei Kiu methods in application? (or was this just the case in this particular fight?)


Robert Chu wrote a really good article on Chi Sau, and in that he lists 14 methods from his CSL WCK system. These are often Kiu Sau related - and involve the "bridge/stick" you mentioned when you said it resulted in you "eating a lot of punches."

Robert's article listed the following methods.

"My 14 methods include:

Mun Fa/ Yin Fa - Asking/inquiring and enticing. Asking can be done with the hands, pressure, body, steps, technique. In asking, you pressure the opponent and use 4 ounces to offset his 1000 pounds.
Jou Fa - Running - avoiding pressure or running from pressure, using pressure to give rise to new situations/techniques
Jeet Fa - Methods of intercepting - beating the opponent to the strike, recognizing threat and immediately shutting it off with the hands, body or steps.
Tao/Lou Fa - Methods of leaking and stealing, seeing an opportunity and taking it, or passively finding it
Jiu Fa - common methods of Gor Sao (crossing hands) such as Tan Da, Pak Da, Lop Da, etc. in singular and combination. Typically, it is a technician's level of training.
Sim Fa - Methods of evasion with steps, body displacement, dodging, hand movement, etc., yet close enough to continue through. There are two major methods, using the torso to evade (small evasion) or using steps to evade (large evasion).
Dai Fa - Methods of guiding, leading an opponent to walls, objects, other directions other than they wanted to go (i.e. Opponent wants to attack you, but you guide him while adding on to his power)
Jie Fa - Methods of borrowing an opponent's power and energy, momentum against him, this is closely tied to pressing the opponent and leading him
Fou - methods of floating, unbalancing, uprooting an opponent
Chum - methods of collapsing a person's structure or sinking
Tun - methods of swallowing an opponent's force and dissolving it, also related are methods of storing power with the body, and folding methods to absorb an opponent's power
Tou - methods of expelling force in contact with the opponent, also methods of extending your force through an opponent.
Tuen Fa - methods of breaking and delinking the body connection in an effort to preserve the body structure
Jip Fa - methods of linking up the body connection once the connection is broken. This is the opposite of Tuen Fa."

[BPWT..]

When I see people not understanding the difference in a live chaos scenario in a ring fight and holding form in drills, it simply shows me they probably do not and have not worked with a higher level of contact.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am the first person to admit that we haven't seen (IMO) any WCK (as I would define it) shown in the ring. But as I said earlier, I have seen someone use the art against two attackers and he dealt with them in a way that looked like Wing Tsun from start to finish. I don't think you can get a "higher level of contact" than that. It was a real fight.

Along with not free sparring (from "lei kiu" - you learn a new term everyday).

Putting aside the fact that HFY has books and books worth of new terms.... .... it also has, according to HFY practitioners who visit this forum, comprehensive Kiu Sau teaching. Have I misunderstood this and do you mean that HFY does not engage in bridge work?

[Wayfaring]

So after one more viewing of the clip, I had one other point.

My assessment - viewing the fight from the initial exchange, what I see is an opponent whose primary style is BJJ. He did not seem to have much wrestling at all, and his striking was not as good as his ground game either. From the outset, he rushes in and tries to clinch. There is NO bridge involved in his bull rush in clinch attempts. So Josh punched his target all day long. Because the guy is trying to clinch up he is having to rotate and use round punches. Eventually the opponent gets an overhook and kind of pulls guard (very weak guard pull because he got punched hard). Most of the rest of the 1st round was basically a BJJ guy trying to angle his hips off to get some offense going, and Josh caging the hips preventing him angling off and some good GNP. 2nd round the opponent basically showed he had little striking skill, and not a great wrestling game to get it to the ground - so he gets bound up close in a clinch and then dropped with a clean shot.

To those expecting a WCK bridge - there wasn't one because the opponent didn't have enough skill to approach a clinch through a bridge - he was trying to dive in on a body clinch or over/underhook. He actually does get an overhook and drag the fight to the ground. (Step 1 in his strategy - Step 2 would be obtain a better position and 3 - finish a submission). However, once on the ground, Josh had enough defensive ground game combined with good GNP where his opponent couldn't execute the last 2 steps in the gameplan. And in the next round, he proved unable to get the match back to the ground before getting KO'd. NOTE: I am not saying his opponent was a scrub. I am saying he was a one-dimensional BJJ guy. I'm sure if Josh had less ground defense skills, he easily could have got caught in a triangle or armbar.

So my point is this. Before criticizing a fighter not fighting from a bridge position, look at what his opponent is giving him.

[Wayfaring]

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am the first person to admit that we haven't seen (IMO) any WCK (as I would define it) shown in the ring. But as I said earlier, I have seen someone use the art against two attackers and he dealt with them in a way that looked like Wing Tsun from start to finish. I don't think you can get a "higher level of contact" than that. It was a real fight.

I was kind of getting at the idea that you personally probably have never done much contact sparring. When you get into discussing street scenarios, the main unknown is the skill level of the attackers. It's highly likely that with a vast difference in skills, attackers never push someone out of their comfort zone like would happen in a ring.

Putting aside the fact that HFY has books and books worth of new terms.... .... it also has, according to HFY practitioners who visit this forum, comprehensive Kiu Sau teaching. Have I misunderstood this and do you mean that HFY does not engage in bridge work?

Yes HFY has terms too. In fact, Chi Kiu for us is a term that describes a portion of our overall chi sau training platform that incorporates kiu sau, chi kiu, and chi sau as three components of the platform. It of course has much more precise meaning than just bridge contact, has its own drills and challenge tests, etc.

[BPWT..]

So after one more viewing of the clip, I had one other point....

So my point is this. Before criticizing a fighter not fighting from a bridge position, look at what his opponent is giving him.

The first round I agree, there was I think a single punch and Josh was able to quickly get a solid hit and take control from there (his own striking). Regarding the ground work, I defer to you as it's not my game.

But in the second round, it opens with the opponent feeling out with jabs and some sloppy punches, and you can see that Josh is not looking to initiate any entering and bridge work from this - and that really is the domain of Kiu Sau. The same could be said after the initial clinch in the second round, where the opponent threw a looping punch.

You are right in saying "2nd round the opponent basically showed he had little striking skill", but I still think this shouldn't mean you decide to not take advantage of that fact and use a strategy to not enter against those strikes, and control from there.

Ultimately, I can't critique too much the strategy Josh used because he got the job done and won the fight - and that's what he was in the ring for. Like I said, he won convincingly and he looks like a real handful.

[Wayfaring]

But in the second round, it opens with the opponent feeling out with jabs and some sloppy punches, and you can see that Josh is not looking to initiate any entering and bridge work from this - and that really is the domain of Kiu Sau. The same could be said after the initial clinch in the second round, where the opponent threw a looping punch.

You are right in saying "2nd round the opponent basically showed he had little striking skill", but I still think this shouldn't mean you decide to not take advantage of that fact and use a strategy to not enter against those strikes, and control from there.

I don't know, maybe he was waiting to see if the guy would try the bulrush clinch on him again so he could tee off again.

Ultimately, I can't critique too much the strategy Josh used because he got the job done and won the fight - and that's what he was in the ring for. Like I said, he won convincingly and he looks like a real handful.

He looked fine to me.

[BPWT..]

I was kind of getting at the idea that you personally probably have never done much contact sparring.

It is funny how people always assume that is the case when someone disagrees with another's viewpoint. My view/experience is different, so that naturally means I haven't sparred and I am wrong. Of course I have sparred.

When you get into discussing street scenarios, the main unknown is the skill level of the attackers. It's highly likely that with a vast difference in skills, attackers never push someone out of their comfort zone like would happen in a ring.

I agree. All I can say is that the two guys were not midgets with their arms in casts and were not two people who looked like they enjoyed a good game of dominos. How skilled were they? I have no idea! I know they very quickly threw some nasty punches and were very quickly taken care of.

I also agree that in the ring people will be pushed out of their comfort zone. Of course, on the street you are often out of your comfort zone from the very first second, as there is a strong possibility (esp. two against one) that you might end up in hospital with very serious injuries.

Yes HFY has terms too. In fact, Chi Kiu for us is a term that describes a portion of our overall chi sau training platform that incorporates kiu sau, chi kiu, and chi sau as three components of the platform. It of course has much more precise meaning than just bridge contact, has its own drills and challenge tests, etc.

Great. So are you also saying, as Chris did, that you train things (in this case these 3 components of the Chi Kiu platform) but that they are not trained for actual use?

I think most WCK lineages have Kiu Sau drills and exercises, etc. I am saying they are there for a reason, and the reason is that the art looks to use Chi Kiu rather than Lei Kiu whenever it can.

[Wayfaring]

It is funny how people always assume that is the case when someone disagrees with another's viewpoint. My view/experience is different, so that naturally means I haven't sparred and I am wrong. Of course I have sparred.

Actually I think the term I was referring to is "hard contact sparring". You kind of avoided talking about the level of contact. We kind of saw the problems with other types of sparring in all the PB clips and fiasco with Obasi controlling him. Someone can slap fight all day long and never learn the subtle differences that are involved with going harder.

I agree. All I can say is that the two guys were not midgets with their arms in casts and were not two people who looked like they enjoyed a good game of dominos. How skilled were they? I have no idea! I know they very quickly threw some nasty punches and were very quickly taken care of.

I also agree that in the ring people will be pushed out of their comfort zone. Of course, on the street you are often out of your comfort zone from the very first second, as there is a strong possibility (esp. two against one) that you might end up in hospital with very serious injuries.

I'm not doing the "sport vs. street" argument with you.

Great. So are you also saying, as Chris did, that you train things (in this case these 3 components of the Chi Kiu platform) but that they are not trained for actual use?

So are you saying you got dropped on your head a lot as a kid? I mean, since we are paraphrasing questions.

I think most WCK lineages have Kiu Sau drills and exercises, etc. I am saying they are there for a reason, and the reason is that the art looks to use Chi Kiu rather than Lei Kiu whenever it can.

"The art" does not "look to use chi kiu rather than lei kiu whenever it can". What you are describing in the art is a term called "chasing hands".

Or actually, you are a Leung Ting guy. maybe that is what your art looks to do.