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Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #211
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sean66 View Post
    Man, bottom line is that Alan trains professional fighters, and his training gives them the tools they need to succeed in the MMA environment.
    Hats off to that!
    And we have all said that....repeatedly! No one has disagreed with that at all!

  2. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    The only thing good coming from this thread at the moment, is the happiness... it seems everyone is laughing at everyone else.

    Imagine this conversation from two other martial artists:

    Bob: Hey, check out this clip of my Aikido student winning a MMA fight with Aikido!
    Larry: Wow, congratulations! Good punch and KO. But I can't see the Aikido so much, it seems to me that...
    Bob: Look, check out his hip position.
    Larry: Yeah, okay. But still, in Aikido don't we train to...
    Bob: Man, it's "hidden" skill - if you can't see that you are too low level. You don't know what you're talking about.
    Larry: Really, congrats on the win - I mean it. I'm just saying that in Aikido I think we train to...
    Bob: (Shakes head) Listen, the system is concept based - you don't expect us actually throw and use joint manipulations, right?
    Larry: To be honest, I do. The concepts actually support the method.
    Bob: LOL. You are the Walking Dead.
    Larry: What? C'mon man, I'm just expressing the opinion that I...
    Bob: We train very hard and we represent Aikido! It is a disrespect to my teacher's work to tell us it's not Aikido.
    Larry: No, don't misunderstand me. No disrepect is intended! You guys do a great job! I just didn't see anything in that recent clip that looked like something other than good MMA that lots of fighters are using.
    Bob: That's because you are low-level in Aikido and just don't know what to look for. The real Aikido is conceptual and uses "hidden" mechanics. Why would you expect to see us actually throwing someone? Please stop limiting Aikido to your view! You are obviously rude and stupid!


    And I guess BPWT and I are the only ones that see this? Everyone just defers to Alan like he is some kind of Wing Chun God or something? Oh well!

    I WILL SAY AGAIN SINCE IT SEEMS TO GET MISSED OVER AND OVER ....... I THINK ALAN AND HIS GUYS ARE DOING GREAT THINGS AND I WISH THEM THE BEST. I SIMPLY DID NOT SEE ANY OBVIOUS WING CHUN IN THE RECENT CLIP THAT WAS LABELED AS "BEST WING CHUN KO IN MMA". WHY THAT BRINGS INSULTS AND DERISION UPON ME IS STILL UNCLEAR, AS IT SHOULD BE TO ANY FAIR-MINDED PERSON READING ALONG.
    Last edited by KPM; 04-23-2014 at 06:51 AM.

  3. #213
    Crouching Tiger 'Hidden' Iron Wolves.



    I don't think it matters what we say. The compliments we give get ignored but the questions we ask, or disagreement we voice, get pegged as "you don't know what you're talking about."

    Just another day on the Kung Fu Magazine forums.

    Sean posted a nice clip on another thread - he's posted a few sparring clips over the last few months and they are consistently good, and consistently it is easy to see the Ving Tsun. He even took a few still shots from a previous clip to show the use of Ving Tsun's Tan and Pak in play, in a live environment.

    I guess that means it is 'low level' because nothing was 'hidden'?

  4. #214
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    "Recognizable WCK elements" seems to me like it would certainly fit with "MMA with some WCK concepts included." So are you saying that in the end you actually agree with me or not?
    What I meant by "recognizable Wing Chun elements" is that while some of it was unrecognizable to me because I train a different system, much of the delivery was how good Wing Chun is applied for real. Anyone doing realistic training can see that.

    I have no idea what you mean by "MMA with some WCK concepts included".

    MMA means Mixed Martial Arts (as you've been told repeatedly). The martial arts they mix are CSL Wing Chun and BJJ. Do you think their standup skills come from the BJJ and just have "some WCK concepts included"? They don't mix any other striking art for their standup.

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    The question is how much of Josh's success can be attributed SPECIFICALLY to his WCK training, and how much can be attributed SPECIFICALLY to his MMA training.
    CSLWC + BJJ = Their MMA.

    Are you wanting to attribute Josh's standup specifically to the BJJ then, if it's not WC? That's bizarre and just wrong, but otherwise I don't know what you're saying.

  5. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfYmNhg4f9c

    New clip on Wing Chun punching development.
    Right. It's definitely not a simple overhand as I at first thought. I wasn't observant enough the first time 'round. It's not what Vitor Belfort threw in the clip KPM posted. Even worse people in the Youtube comments on the fight were calling it a classical Boxing jab or hook! Hopefully they watch this clip and then watch the fight more carefully. Although in my system we prefer tighter lines, we also use Cham-kiu for punching with power. Good explanation of a strong KO punch!

  6. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I WILL SAY AGAIN SINCE IT SEEMS TO GET MISSED OVER AND OVER ....... I THINK ALAN AND HIS GUYS ARE DOING GREAT THINGS AND I WISH THEM THE BEST. I SIMPLY DID NOT SEE ANY OBVIOUS WING CHUN IN THE RECENT CLIP THAT WAS LABELED AS "BEST WING CHUN KO IN MMA". WHY THAT BRINGS INSULTS AND DERISION UPON ME IS STILL UNCLEAR, AS IT SHOULD BE TO ANY FAIR-MINDED PERSON READING ALONG.
    Keith a little feedback from me - I think you're getting a little bit of a hard time because of 2 things:

    1) You're kind of playing the victim - if 3 people answer your post in a row they are not ganging up on you it's an illusion.
    2) In spite of people laying out specifics of things to look for in WCK, you are avoiding talking about those specifics and seem to be doggedly hanging on to your "I didn't see any obvious wing chun" line. To me the key word there is OBVIOUS. You seem to carry an expectation that it should look obvious. Others don't.

    To me "obvious" is less desired than "hidden". The why is that if it is hidden that means there is a hard wired WCK identity built in that comes out in natural movements. This is much different than someone struggling through daan chi sau or trying to tan sau a charging MMA fighter while getting dropped by a hook.

    But hey, to each their own.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    To me "obvious" is less desired than "hidden". The why is that if it is hidden that means there is a hard wired WCK identity built in that comes out in natural movements.
    Yes, this is what is seen in the way Josh fights and the "recognizable WC elements" I referred to in the way he moves. Certainly not as obvious as laap-da and other techniques beginners might be looking for.

  8. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Yes, this is what is seen in the way Josh fights and the "recognizable WC elements" I referred to in the way he moves. Certainly not as obvious as laap-da and other techniques beginners might be looking for.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0

    Two very fit, strong looking guys for sure. I'm sure they'd make mince-meat of me. From a fitness point alone, I'd probably be toast.

    Here I see covering with the gloves, ducking and weaving, weight sometimes forward with some lunging stepping, heads down, some jabs and crosses, etc.

    As someone who trains Wing Tsun, I would not look to do many of those things - but okay, putting aside what I wouldn't want to do in such training...

    What do you see here (hidden or obvious) that would make you think this is Wing Chun, rather than, say, two boxers (western) training some light sparring?

  9. #219

  10. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0

    Two very fit, strong looking guys for sure. I'm sure they'd make mince-meat of me. From a fitness point alone, I'd probably be toast.

    Here I see covering with the gloves, ducking and weaving, weight sometimes forward with some lunging stepping, heads down, some jabs and crosses, etc.

    As someone who trains Wing Tsun, I would not look to do many of those things - but okay, putting aside what I wouldn't want to do in such training...

    What do you see here (hidden or obvious) that would make you think this is Wing Chun, rather than, say, two boxers (western) training some light sparring?
    Do I need to say it again? We use Wing Chun punches, Wing Chun elbow, Wing Chun power, Wing Chun positioning control, Wing Chun Fist position, Wing Chun weight control,Wing Chun structure and much more.

  11. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Do I need to say it again? We use Wing Chun punches, Wing Chun elbow, Wing Chun power, Wing Chun positioning control, Wing Chun Fist position, Wing Chun weight control,Wing Chun structure and much more.
    On the one hand that's good, because the things you've just listed are "obvious", rather than "hidden."

    On the other hand... I think Wayfaring is right and I must have been dropped on my head as a child... because I'm still struggling to tally this. It seems to me that CSL WC features jabs and crosses much the way a western boxer might use them, hands up in a parallel guard often by the side of the head, hands/gloves used to cover and absorb hits, ducking and weaving, head down and body leaning forward when punching, centreline open when issuing strikes, etc.

    If that's how you train, okay. If it wins you fights, okay - that's the point of being in the ring, all said. I just haven't seen anyone's Wing Chun look like this.

    On the second page of this thread you said: "Our Wing Chun is very different to others."

    Agreed!

  12. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJsO...ature=youtu.be


    A quick new clip of basic Bridging skills
    Good clip, ...what you say and show here makes good sense.

    @BPWT l agree that Alan's CSL stuff doesn't look a lot like LT's WT. But it does look a lot like the DTE Eskrima I train with Martin Torres. Martin and I originally studied PMAS Escrima under Rene Latosa and Martin studied WT from me and also took some seminars with LT back in the 80s. We still get together with Rene when possible.

    Martin was also a boxer. And he has been training fighters since the 90s. He says he still uses WC conceptually, and with good results. To a traditional guy like me, it's hard to see, but when they show it to you, or use it on you, it's absolutely there. I think I'm seeing the same thing with Alan's guys. You just have to open your mind about how the essence of WC (or WT) can be applied. You know it was actually LT himself, back in the early days, who first told me this. He said that if you really understand WT, you could fight looking like a Hung Gar guy, a Choi Lay Fut guy, or a Western Boxer and you could make it work like WC.
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  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Do I need to say it again? We use Wing Chun punches, Wing Chun elbow, Wing Chun power, Wing Chun positioning control, Wing Chun Fist position, Wing Chun weight control,Wing Chun structure and much more.
    Post that clip on the general forum or the MMA forum and say that this is Wing Chun and see what kind of reaction you get.

  14. #224
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Post that clip on the general forum or the MMA forum and say that this is Wing Chun and see what kind of reaction you get.
    I'd like to see a clip of what your "straight up" Wing Chun looks like when the pressure is on, maybe we can learn where we are going wrong...

  15. #225
    Hey Grumblegeezer. Actually, for me, I see many things in Alan's instructional clips that resonate with the WT method.

    So with this new bridging clip, much of it makes sense.

    That said, I don't like the example given at 2.12, however... as this is not a good example of bridging (IMO), so it does of course lead to being hit by the second punch.

    It was a rough demo, of course, so I get it was only to illustrate an idea (but the bridging hand was more horizontal than forward, the body not behind it, etc, and a Pak Sau motion shouldn't be done as a single motion without a strike - but before anyone jumps all over this post from me, it's all cool... I get that it was just a quick example from Alan).

    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Post that clip on the general forum or the MMA forum and say that this is Wing Chun and see what kind of reaction you get.
    A better test would be to post it on a boxing forum and say it's a clip of two boxers you're training... and then see how many people pipe up to say, "Actually, that looks more like Wing Chun Kung Fu to me."

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