Page 16 of 32 FirstFirst ... 6141516171826 ... LastLast
Results 226 to 240 of 479

Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Hey Grumblegeezer. Actually, for me, I see many things in Alan's instructional clips that resonate with the WT method.

    So with this new bridging clip, much of it makes sense.

    That said, I don't like the example given at 2.12, however... as this is not a good example of bridging (IMO), so it does of course lead to being hit by the second punch.

    It was a rough demo, of course, so I get it was only to illustrate an idea (but the bridging hand was more horizontal than forward, the body not behind it, etc, and a Pak Sau motion shouldn't be done as a single motion without a strike - but before anyone jumps all over this post from me, it's all cool... I get that it was just a quick example from Alan).


    A better test would be to post it on a boxing forum and say it's a clip of two boxers you're training... and then see how many people pipe up to say, "Actually, that looks more like Wing Chun Kung Fu to me."

    The example is not good bridging of course. I showed that as if you look on you tube you will see many clips of wing chun where this is what they are doing. Anyway most boxers do not understand wing chun so posting the clip to them means nothing. Also I'm sharing the clip with the wing Chun world who on the whole are very happy to see wing chun working under pressure. You think that would be a good thing.

    Already I have add hundreds of emails saying it's great to see my team using wing chun and doing well as they have done for 10 years now in combat sports. Including chi sao events.

    Wing chun is a Chinese boxing system to me and close to western boxing but but the same in principles of use. If you can't see that then not much I can say about it. As I keep saying if you know what your looking for then it's clear what is wing chun.

    Post your sparring so we can see if we see wing chun in the same way.

    What is your name? Which style do you train ?
    Last edited by Alan Orr; 04-23-2014 at 01:52 PM.

  2. #227
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Rockville, MD
    Posts
    2,662
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Do I need to say it again? We use Wing Chun punches, Wing Chun elbow, Wing Chun power, Wing Chun positioning control, Wing Chun Fist position, Wing Chun weight control,Wing Chun structure and much more.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0

    Ok. So let me make sure I am clear on this. You are saying that:

    ---standing in a wide stance with the body inclined forward the chin tucked down and the hands up in front of the face with the centerline unoccupied
    ---doing high covers with the gloves to defend against head shots
    ---bobbing and weaving and generally "bouncing around" with footwork
    ---bending forward at the waist and leaning in with punches
    ---dropping the head and upper body forward and to the left while throwing a looping overhand right punch
    ---dropping the chin to the chest and "wading in" to a barrage of punches
    ---no defensive hand techniques except possibly an occasional Pak Sao

    This is all CSL Wing Chun structure, power and technique as taught by Robert Chu?

    Chris wrote:
    I'd like to see a clip of what your "straight up" Wing Chun looks like when the pressure is on, maybe we can learn where we are going wrong...

    That was a "light sparring session" as described. There wasn't a lot of pressure here. They even had a few laughs. Perfect time to make sure good WCK technique is being used. Just take a look at the other two recent sparring clips posted in the forum. Much more "pressure" being on and yet they still looked like Wing Chun.

    But Ok. This is CSL Wing Chun if you guys say it is. No need to call anyone stupid or low-level or anything like that just because we stated the obvious.

  3. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    The example is not good bridging of course. I showed that as if you look on you tube you will see many clips of wing chun where this is what they are doing.
    Fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Anyway most boxers do not understand wing chun so posting the clip to them means nothing. Also I'm sharing the clip with the wing Chun world who on the whole are very happy to see wing chun working under pressure. You think that would be a good thing.
    If people are, on the whole, happy with this, then again... fair enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Already I have add hundreds of emails saying it's great to see my team using wing chun and doing well as they have done for 10 years now in combat sports. Including chi sao events.
    Okay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    As I keep saying if you know what your looking for then it's clear what is wing chun.
    I know you keep saying this, and I know the implication is that if I don't agree with you then it means I am low level and basically cr@p. I also know that by continuing to reply to these posts, I'm beginning to look like an arsehole. However, for me and any other low level Wing Chun guys who don't see what you're saying, please help explain a little more.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0

    What are the Wing Chun concepts/principles or hidden skills that I am missing when I see students:

    * Cover to take a punch on the gloves/hands (0.12) (0.23)
    * Step forward with weight on the lead leg, and bend the head forward as they punch (0.18) (0.28) (0.38)
    * Guard position with both hands/gloves held up by the side of the face (0.30)
    * Body moves right with a step as punch targets to the left (0.38)

    To me the above might fit with a boxer's training, but I genuinely don't see, or know, how this fits into Wing Chun. So I am asking. Robert Chu, if I'm not mistaken, was exposed to Wing Chun from Yuen Kay San lineage, Yip Man lineage (Hawkins Cheung) and also Gulao Wing Chun. Which of these lineages employ these methods?

    If these lineages do employ these methods, then it would be great if I could see it performed elsewhere. If you're right, and they do, then I admit that this is outside of the system I train and you're right - I just don't understand Wing Chun well enough to comment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Post your sparring so we can see if we see wing chun in the same way.
    I explained to Chris that the sparring I do I don't record. What you would see is that I try, as best as I can, to use the system without modifications. Varying degrees of success. My biggest problem is not from boxing but from Muay Thai; I have real trouble reading their kicks. I don't have time to train ground fighting - work commitments - so I only spar stand up. My sparring doesn't look like your sparring clip - so you would probably say we don't see Wing Chun in the same way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    What is your name?
    Really? Witchhunt or crazy email spamming coming my way? No thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan Orr View Post
    Which style do you train?
    Leung Ting Wing Tsun. Not the EWTO.

  4. #229
    Jesus! KPM, we've posted really similar responses. To anyone still reading this rather long and drawn out 'discussion' we are... not the same person.


  5. #230
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    44
    Blog Entries
    1
    KPM, I was talking about Josh's fight clip. BPWT, it's not unreasonable to ask someone's name. I use my name and if someone feels the need to check me out on the web etc so be it.

    Where are you based? In the UK? If so, why don't you see where the closest CSL school is to you, the guys are always friendly and am sure would be able to show you hands on how our method works.

  6. #231
    It's unreasonable to expect someone's name if a) they choose not to give it on a public forum that doesn't require it, b) it serves no relevance to a discussion.

    I know the fighter's name is Josh and the instructor is Alan - because it was said. I don't need to know their names to watch the clips and not understand them.

    I don't teach or compete - so the only web presence that might interest you is my professional one - but seeing as my work is in no way connected to Wing Chun, I can't see how that helps you.

    Unless, of course, Alan wants to forward to me hundreds of emails from people supporting what he does. My inbox has enough for me to read without it. I am happy to take him at his word on that matter.

  7. #232
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Rockville, MD
    Posts
    2,662
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Jesus! KPM, we've posted really similar responses. To anyone still reading this rather long and drawn out 'discussion' we are... not the same person.

    True! We don't even live on the same continent!

  8. #233
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Post that clip on the general forum or the MMA forum and say that this is Wing Chun and see what kind of reaction you get.
    You Wing Chun guys can't even get it. Posting it on a general or MMA forum where people are far less likely to get it than you will surely prove your point!

  9. #234
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    @BPWT & KPM,

    Barring firsthand experience, Alan does have several DVDs detailing their system. Perhaps seeing them will help you understand what they're doing and how it is Wing Chun. It'd probably open your eyes quite a bit and help improve your game if you took some of the ideas on board.

  10. #235
    Yes, firsthand experience is always best. But I spend half my life in airports these days... so before I book another flight, or pull out my credit card to order Alan's DVDs, it would be good if he or Chris could take the time to answer the Qs from the previous page:

    ----

    What are the Wing Chun concepts/principles or hidden skills that I am missing when I see students:

    * Cover to take a punch on the gloves/hands (0.12) (0.23)
    * Step forward with weight on the lead leg, and bend the head forward as they punch (0.18) (0.28) (0.38)
    * Guard position with both hands/gloves held up by the side of the face (0.30)
    * Body moves right with a step as punch targets to the left (0.38)

    To me the above might fit with a boxer's training, but I genuinely don't see, or know, how this fits into Wing Chun. So I am asking.

    Robert Chu, if I'm not mistaken, was exposed to Wing Chun from Yuen Kay San lineage, Yip Man lineage (Hawkins Cheung) and also Gulao Wing Chun. Which of these lineages employ these methods?

    ----

    If CSL Wing Chun is Robert Chu's method, mixed with BJJ for groundwork and also some western boxing for stand up, that's okay (they can train however they like) - but why not just call it that? If that's not true, and CSL Wing Chun's stand up game includes the above mentioned methods and no western boxing, then maybe someone from those lineages (YKS, HC and Gulao) could step in and confirm it - and then maybe explain how the said methods fit into their system's general framework.

    If I'm wrong, then hands-up from me, I'm wrong.

  11. #236
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    Alan already explained how what they do differs from Western Boxing. They use WC elbow, WC fist position, WC weight control, WC body structure, etc.. Almost every aspect of it is different from LTWT as well. So you really have to understand the basics of their system, or share those ideas to be able to see it. It's understandably very difficult from a LTWT perspective, but from WSLVT, we share basically the same concepts just with a preference for tighter lines. So I get what he's saying.

  12. #237
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    44
    Blog Entries
    1
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Yes, firsthand experience is always best. But I spend half my life in airports these days... so before I book another flight, or pull out my credit card to order Alan's DVDs, it would be good if he or Chris could take the time to answer the Qs from the previous page:

    ----

    What are the Wing Chun concepts/principles or hidden skills that I am missing when I see students:

    * Cover to take a punch on the gloves/hands (0.12) (0.23)
    * Step forward with weight on the lead leg, and bend the head forward as they punch (0.18) (0.28) (0.38)
    * Guard position with both hands/gloves held up by the side of the face (0.30)
    * Body moves right with a step as punch targets to the left (0.38)

    To me the above might fit with a boxer's training, but I genuinely don't see, or know, how this fits into Wing Chun. So I am asking.

    Robert Chu, if I'm not mistaken, was exposed to Wing Chun from Yuen Kay San lineage, Yip Man lineage (Hawkins Cheung) and also Gulao Wing Chun. Which of these lineages employ these methods?

    ----

    If CSL Wing Chun is Robert Chu's method, mixed with BJJ for groundwork and also some western boxing for stand up, that's okay (they can train however they like) - but why not just call it that? If that's not true, and CSL Wing Chun's stand up game includes the above mentioned methods and no western boxing, then maybe someone from those lineages (YKS, HC and Gulao) could step in and confirm it - and then maybe explain how the said methods fit into their system's general framework.

    If I'm wrong, then hands-up from me, I'm wrong.
    My teacher has answered your questions many times already, if you can't see or understand our method by now, short of hands on experience...

    You never answered my question regarding where you live, I'm based in the Channel Islands. If you are in my locale I would be happy to explain hands on how our method works.

    You seem trapped in this "if you don't do it my way it's wrong/not proper wing chun". This is evident from many of your comments, including your generous observation that "pak sau should always be done with a strike" when trying to find something wrong with my teachers clip. Are you kidding me? How long have you been training? Wing Chun is an art of self expression, are you telling me there is only ONE way it can be applied? Pak Sao means to clap/slap hand not slap hand but always make sure you accompany it with a strike.

    I suppose you also think the concept of simultaneous attack and defence has to manifest itself under this dogma.

    At the end of the day you might be happy to be straight jacketed by the constraints of your system. I trained in your system some time ago, trained chi Sao sections did lots of lat Sao etc. At the time I liked it but I could never go back to that method now.

  13. #238
    @ LFJ

    Yes, Alan said that his guys use WC elbow, WC fist position, WC weight control, WC body structure, etc. But I was asking for a little more info on this, to make things clearer.

    For example:

    Leaning forward with weight placed over the COG in a lunging punch doesn't seem to conform to WC weight control in any Wing Chun I have seen.
    (is this present from YKS, HC and Gulao Wing Chun?)

    Tucking the chin and leaning forward when striking - almost with the head angled down, doesn't seem to conform to WC body structure in any Wing Chun I have seen.
    (is this present from YKS, HC and Gulao Wing Chun?)

    Keeping the hands by the side of head as way of covering/absorbing a strike doesn't seem to conform to WC fist position in any Wing Chun I have seen.
    (is this present from YKS, HC and Gulao Wing Chun?)

    This is what I am trying to get to the bottom of, if I am to think, "Okay, I was wrong - this is indeed clearly Wing Chun body method, structure and strategy."

    For sure, there are some differences between lineages (e.g. WSLVT and LTWT), but would you say that your method does indeed include the above? If so, how does that fit within the WSLVT system? I don't see anyone from WSLVT doing things like this.

    Indeed, the sparring clips that Sean has shared (good clips indeed) don't look like Alan's and there is a clear correlation between Sean's clips of drills and clips of sparring. In both, the VT looks the same (method, structure, strategy, etc).

    Despite some differences in use and interpretation between various Wing Chun lines, there are commonalities too. So while I can watch Alan's instructional clips and see some of those differences, I can also see things that make sense and relate to what I learn - there are commonalities there. But what I see in the light sparring clip from Alan, for example, really is like nothing I've seen from any Wing Chun lineage.
    Last edited by BPWT..; 04-24-2014 at 02:29 AM.

  14. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    My teacher has answered your questions many times already, if you can't see or understand our method by now, short of hands on experience...
    As I just posted, Alan is saying that what they do follows, for example, Wing Chun structure, or fist positioning, etc. Can you see my questions above and explain it to me in more detail?

    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    You never answered my question regarding where you live, I'm based in the Channel Islands. If you are in my locale I would be happy to explain hands on how our method works.
    Thanks for the offer. If I am in your neck of the woods then yes, I would enjoy meeting. I am based in Budapest, Hungary, but I actually spend more time travelling with work than I do in the city. I travel in the CEE region, throughout Europe and sometimes further afield. As a result, I train with numerous people who have been connected to the LT system. Most of them no longer officially (if you've been in the WT system, you might understand the implication behind this ).

    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    You seem trapped in this "if you don't do it my way it's wrong/not proper wing chun".
    Not at all! Sean's VT from PB has differences to my system (some quite stark), but I don't see it as wrong - just different. At their core, both arts are clearly connected, despite the differences.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    This is evident from many of your comments, including your generous observation that "pak sau should always be done with a strike" when trying to find something wrong with my teachers clip. Are you kidding me? How long have you been training? Wing Chun is an art of self expression, are you telling me there is only ONE way it can be applied? Pak Sao means to clap/slap hand not slap hand but always make sure you accompany it with a strike.
    I'm not sure where to start on this - so probably it is best for me to not start on it. I'll just say that Alan explained that yes, he was showing a 'bad way' of bridging at that point of his clip. He was showing the problem. Part of the problem was the way the Pak Sau was used.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    At the end of the day you might be happy to be straight jacketed by the constraints of your system.
    All systems have some constraints - it is the nature of any system. This is why Alan's guys train BJJ, after all.

    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    I trained in your system some time ago, trained chi Sao sections did lots of lat Sao etc. At the time I liked it but I could never go back to that method now.
    You trained in the EWTO, or you learned from someone who had learned the Hong Kong Wing Tsun system? If the latter, I would love to hear more as it might be another HK LTWT person it would be good for me to meet.

  15. #240
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    ᏌᏂᎭᎢ, ᏥᎾ
    Posts
    3,257
    @BPWT

    To answer your question simply, we (CSLWC & WSLVT) share the same or very similar basic concepts, but have different expressions in application. What I've seen from Alan explaining those things, e.g. elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc., are all ideas shared in WSLVT. I suspect you have a very different definition of these in LTWT.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •