Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[LFJ]

I think Orr has explained this before. This is my explanation not his. Wing chun is not in the form or shape but in the substance. Most people are stuck at the form or shape level of training. The form or shapes are what is taught to beginners as a means to learn the substance but they are not the end. Once we catch on to the substance by practicing the form or shapes we no longer are restricted to form or shapes since we can express the substance without them. You become free form in your actions. The wing chun punch for example involves hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way.

If in the end it is indistinguishable from a simple overhand punch from any other system, the training of Wing Chun form or shape and all that first is a waste of time. Why not just train the overhand straight away like other successful fighters in MMA?

[KPM]

I think Orr has explained this before. This is my explanation not his. Wing chun is not in the form or shape but in the substance. Most people are stuck at the form or shape level of training. The form or shapes are what is taught to beginners as a means to learn the substance but they are not the end. Once we catch on to the substance by practicing the form or shapes we no longer are restricted to form or shapes since we can express the substance without them. You become free form in your actions. The wing chun punch for example involves hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way.

For others checking in the punch happens at about 7:18. Let's see..... "hitting with your structure or your center in a particular way"....that particular way possibly being using Wing Chun mechanics? Leaning forward, ducking your head and swinging from the shoulder are not typical Wing Chun mechanics as far as I know. Sure didn't look to me like his punch was connected to his hips in a Wing Chun fashion. And besides....let's say I work with a friend that is an MMA fighter and simply show him how to throw a hard straight punch down the center that connects to the hip and uses his structure better than the typical rear cross. Is he now "doing Wing Chun" in the ring?

[KPM]

Here's an example of what I was talking about in my last post. Watch this highlight reel of Vitor Belfort:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp7giqxPToo

Notice at the beginning of the clip he throws the very same punch that Josh used in the clip that started this thread. But pay attention at about 53 seconds in. Early in his career Vitor was known for straight direct punching. Watch him charge in and overwhelm his opponent with what is essentially Wing Chun chain punching. To me, THIS looks more like Wing Chun than the clip at the beginning of this thread. Should we claim Vitor as an example of Wing Chun's success in MMA? Is Vitor doing Wing Chun? Or is Vitor doing good MMA that just happens to occasionally incorporate some Wing Chun concepts?

[tc101]

If in the end it is indistinguishable from a simple overhand punch from any other system, the training of Wing Chun form or shape and all that first is a waste of time. Why not just train the overhand straight away like other successful fighters in MMA?

Many arts have similar let me emphasize similar tools. Fighting is in the end going to look like fighting. Wing chun is just a way to train for it and to approach it.

Here's the thing you have guys like the Orr group or Obasi and so forth that are wing chun trained there is no doubt about that. They all know the forms can do the drills and so forth. Yet what we see again and again is these guys who take the next step and don't just keep playing forms and drills but train to fight and do fight end up not looking like the form/drill guys think they should. What we never see is any wing chun people really fighting looking like what the form/drill guys think they should. Why is that? Orr has already explained it. I explained it. I think people do not want to accept that explanation because to admit it would mean that being at the form/drill level is only the first stage of wing chun.

One of the things I find hard to believe about so many in wing chun is that they gauge their wing chun on what they think they know or think they understand and not what they can do. This is why they keep talking about knowledge or understanding and not skill or performance. The form/drill guys know how wing chun should be and they understand it better than anyone it's just that they cannot do any of it.

What you have are guys who cannot do it who would get beaten silly by Orr or Obasi telling us these guys who would destroy them are doing it all wrong. Stop and think about that. Guys who can't do it and can't point to anyone who can do it like they think it should be done think they know - there is that word again - better than they guys really doing it how things should work. Their excuse is well well yeah they can beat me but that's not wing chun. They say that because their perspective is from the form/drill stage where they see wing chun as fixed dance steps. Not wing chun? No it is just they cannot understand that the fixed dance steps cannot be for the most part used or fit into fighting but the movement, the connections, the ability to handle pressure, generate power and so forth what I learned was the substance behind the forms/drills can be used in fighting.

KPM does not see that what forces you to see this is the realistic training. That is why guys who do that training like Orr and Obasi and the other guys really fighting get it and he doesn't.

[Kellen Bassette]

Fighting looks like fighting. Gong Fu is a method of developing a particular skill...all respect to Sifu Orr and his team for bringing their Gong Fu training into a real and live environment. They are a light in a dark and shameful world.

[Alan Orr]

Nice to see the concepts and attributes of wing chun being applied in MMA. This is something I am exploring in own training at the moment. My fear is that many wing chun people will not appreciate the video because they are constrained with what wing chun should look like in a fight rather than what it can achieve.

I think we have all seen the videos on YouTube of wing chun exponents being made to look silly and their art failing them. Time to move forward whilst embracing the past but not to be defined by it.

Many thanks, yes your right. Many have the idea that if it works in MMA it can't be Wing Chun. It's funny. so we can't worry about people like that.

[Alan Orr]

Well, I can appreciate the theory Alan covers in his clips. He seems to be one of the few who understands the difference between training form and the abstract nature of the application of Wing Chun, as well as how to bridge the two.

That said however, a big overhand thrown by a guy who trains WC doesn't make it a "Wing Chun punch". It's indistinguishable from the same punch any other MMA fighter who's never trained WC would throw, and is not an "angle of punch" in any WC lineage I'm familiar with.

At the end of the day, it got the job done. So whatever. Call it whatever pleases you.

We have many punches in the Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun system. This is pure application of our structural power and timing. This is our reeling punch. I may put up a clip on my you tube channel showing this punch.

Oh yes we punch from all angles as well.

[Alan Orr]

I like Alan Orr and what he is doing. But watching this clip I would not have thought this was Wing Chun if it wasn't in the tag line. To me, this is MMA with some WCK concepts included. This is not straight up Wing Chun. Wing Chun looks like Wing Chun because that is what it is. You can't do boxing with some Tan Sau's, Bong Sau's and WCK concepts and call it Wing Chun. That's Jeet Kune Do! I certainly appreciate the skill and athleticism shown in the video. But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun!

Going by your post you don't understand Wing Chun or JKD lol or MMA in fact!

MMA = mixed martial arts.

Straight up Wing Chun? WTF is that lol Wing Chun is not a limited style. I know we see lots of basic drill based Wing Chun around. But that;s not Wing Chun.

The training forms, drill, chi sao, sparring. The application is a fight.

In a fight you use the skills you gain from the training. Balance, timing, position control, power and much more.

You say -
But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun

It is a fight its not an instruction tape. If you can't see the weight placement to gain power. The hip and center control then you can't see the deeper layers of Wing Chun skills.

[Alan Orr]

Here's the thing you know what wing chun practiced in unrealistic settings looks like as in chi sau and san sau and so forth, and you think this is what it will look like when things get really hot and heavy when going all out in fighting. That viewpoint is not based on experience really doing that or even seeing it done like that since you cannot point me to anyone who is able to do it like you think it should be done. Why is it do you think that the guys who train wing chun like the Orr team or Obasi or anyone else does not end up looking like how you think they should? Did it ever occur to you that maybe it is because you have unrealistic ideas of what wing chun is and how it works and that maybe guys like Orr simply have a realistic idea that comes from genuine realistic experience? In other words, they are just much more advanced than you?

It is howling funny how guys will say yeah they could beat me silly but they just aren't doing it right!



It has absolutely nothing to do with wing chun knowledge and everrything to do with skill that comes from the training. You can't see it because you are not there.

Good post, thanks

[KPM]

KPM does not see that what forces you to see this is the realistic training. That is why guys who do that training like Orr and Obasi and the other guys really fighting get it and he doesn't.

I find it interesting and bit boring that you just keep repeating your mantra and don't even try to acknowledge or counter the points I have made.

[Alan Orr]

KPM, I have to agree. I would not have recognised the WC either. I've watched the clips where Alan explains how what he does is WC, and he makes a lot of sense. So since he's the coach and he can see it, I'll take his word for that. I just wish I could see a bit more WC in the mix, like when Alan himself demonstrates.

Still, the results are impressive. Kudos to Josh Kaldani, his coach Alan Orr, and to the Iron Wolves.

What is wing chun? training and application look different.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOeFy36W8pw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg_MJyOd2SE


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0


We train skills then we punch and kick people. The skill of when, why and how is in the training. The training is not fighting.

[Alan Orr]

If in the end it is indistinguishable from a simple overhand punch from any other system, the training of Wing Chun form or shape and all that first is a waste of time. Why not just train the overhand straight away like other successful fighters in MMA?

In Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun we train our structure and center so we can punch with power and not lose base. A lot of boxing punches have a higher center of balance, which means they can lose balance. This is one of the many many reason we are punching differently from normal boxing. We train a chinese boxing system. I can't see why people on a wing chun forum are unhappy to see our wing chun working.

[KPM]

Going by your post you don't understand Wing Chun or JKD lol or MMA in fact!

MMA = mixed martial arts.

Straight up Wing Chun? WTF is that lol Wing Chun is not a limited style. I know we see lots of basic drill based Wing Chun around. But that;s not Wing Chun.

The training forms, drill, chi sao, sparring. The application is a fight.

In a fight you use the skills you gain from the training. Balance, timing, position control, power and much more.

You say -
But it gives me no idea of what his Wing Chun knowledge might be, or if he even does Wing Chun

It is a fight its not an instruction tape. If you can't see the weight placement to gain power. The hip and center control then you can't see the deeper layers of Wing Chun skills.

I never said Wing Chun was limited. Let me ask you this Alan. If you took one your students or of Robert's students that has never done any MMA specific training or even sparred with MMA guys and threw him in the cage for a bout at an event....would he look anything like Josh did in that clip? I still say that was MMA with some Wing Chun concepts included. And there is nothing wrong with that. Was Vitor doing Wing Chun in the clip I posted? I agree that the training develops skills. But then why does it look nothing like the training when expressed in the cage? You fight the way you train. So I maintain that what we are actually seeing in these clips is a result of MMA training more than it is the Wing Chun training. That's what I mean by "straight up" Wing Chun. The average guy training Wing Chun today is NOT going look like your guys if he ever had to fight. That is because your guys do a heck of a lot of MMA training in addition to any Wing Chun training. You fight the way you train. Many Wing Chun people are guilty of not taking their Wing Chun training to a more realistic level. But one doesn't have to train MMA to do that.

And you agree with Twen/tc101 that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun knowledge? Doesn't Wing Chun knowledge equate to Wing Chun training? So you could throw out the "Wing Chun knowledge" that you are imparting to your students and just do the MMA training and they would be just as successful?

[Alan Orr]

Here's an example of what I was talking about in my last post. Watch this highlight reel of Vitor Belfort:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vp7giqxPToo

Notice at the beginning of the clip he throws the very same punch that Josh used in the clip that started this thread. But pay attention at about 53 seconds in. Early in his career Vitor was known for straight direct punching. Watch him charge in and overwhelm his opponent with what is essentially Wing Chun chain punching. To me, THIS looks more like Wing Chun than the clip at the beginning of this thread. Should we claim Vitor as an example of Wing Chun's success in MMA? Is Vitor doing Wing Chun? Or is Vitor doing good MMA that just happens to occasionally incorporate some Wing Chun concepts?

I have trained with Vitor as he is a friend of my BJJ teacher. He wasn't doing Wing Chun and has never said anything different - he just fired a one two repeated and charged. So that is a pointless reference. On the other hand Josh does train Wing Chun - Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun and we did train to land that punch. All my MMA fighters train CSL Wing Chun - is that clear for you? I am bored of explaining that just because you have a limited insight to what we do - it does not mean we do.

If, I think, maybe, could be, - all BS. You don't know so what are you adding?

We have a system which is tested in very way. We know what we can do and why we do it. That is why we have such a strong team of fighters. My UK guys have done very well, I have been in NZ a year and already we have a very strong Team. This because I teach a system. It is not lucky concepts or a mix of ideas.

We know what we are doing. Our Wing Chun is very different to others, I know as after 27 years in Wing Chun I have checked out many styles and teachers. I am very very clear on my art.

[tc101]

And you agree with Twen/tc101 that it has nothing to do with Wing Chun knowledge? Doesn't Wing Chun knowledge equate to Wing Chun training? So you could throw out the "Wing Chun knowledge" that you are imparting to your students and just do the MMA training and they would be just as successful?

No no no no not it is not about knowledge it is about learning and developing skills. Skills. Change your thinking to what skills do I have, what skills have I learned, and so on instead of knowledge. You see there is two types of knowledge, unrealistic knowledge and realistic knowledge. Realistic knowledge comes from experience actually doing the skills. Unrealistic knowledge comes from not doing the skills.